Premature action on CRoW?

[Peter Burgess]

A small number have been chatting off this page so you have to take it from me that it's not just me that has concerns.

I can just imagine loads of active cavers sitting around in the pub discussing the minutia of the BCA constitution...

Oh wait...I can't...

They certainly are now they know about it.

 

[Clive G]

What about a pointed stick?

Never mind the pointed stick, it's the bananas and raspberries you've got to be careful of when posting comments in the UKCaving forum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Jesus. What a palava. I suggest open air is bollocks anyway. They just meant outside. Outdoor pursuits maybe? Is caving an indoor pursuit?

 

[NigR]

No, Robin! Please don't spoil it!

 

[royfellows]

Jesus. What a palava. I suggest open air is bollocks anyway. They just meant outside. Outdoor pursuits maybe? Is caving an indoor pursuit?

Ha! You are the first person to the best of my knowledge who has suggested this. Unless something is defined in law somewhere, it has no substance in law.

Try this, if you can look up and see the sky, you are outdoors, if you cant, you are indoors.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Jesus. What a palava. I suggest open air is bollocks anyway. They just meant outside. Outdoor pursuits maybe? Is caving an indoor pursuit?

Ha! You are the first person to the best of my knowledge who has suggested this. Unless something is defined in law somewhere, it has no substance in law.

Try this, if you can look up and see the sky, you are outdoors, if you cant, you are indoors.

You could be under trees or in a forest. :ang: :ang:

 

[royfellows]

Good effort!

 

[Stu]

Jesus. What a palava. I suggest open air is bollocks anyway. They just meant outside. Outdoor pursuits maybe? Is caving an indoor pursuit?

Ha! You are the first person to the best of my knowledge who has suggested this. Unless something is defined in law somewhere, it has no substance in law.

Try this, if you can look up and see the sky, you are outdoors, if you cant, you are indoors.

It's been mentioned many times before Roy. Caving is an outdoor pursuit. Look at any outdoor centre or provider of said activities.  Look at the long history and parallels between climbing and caving (Puttrell, Livesey, pick a name from the Stoney Middleton crew from back in the day).

Caving got "overlooked" because the policy of our representative body was to keep it such. It wasn't included nor was it excluded. No one brought it to the attention of the legislators. The point I'm making is that caving, traditionally is seen as an outdoor pursuit so a precedent is set.

If I'm in a tent am I indoors? If I'm diving and can't see the sky am I indoors? If I'm in a cave isn't it just because I'm underground...

Furthermore the etymology of the terms indoor and outdoor relate to a threshold between inside a building, residence, dwelling and everything outside of that. To go outdoors is to get out of the house.

 

[Aubrey]

When our ancestors lived in caves would they not have referred to the cave as indoors?

 

[Bob Mehew]

Sorry to spoil the party but can I throw into the consideration that when CRoW was being debated TWO amendments were debated during the committee stages in both the Commons  and Lords.  One amendment defined ?open air recreation? as ?recreational activities usually carried out in the open air? whilst the other used ?recreational activities necessarily carried out in the open air?.  Both were withdrawn.  Thus it is clear that the intent of parliament was that ?open air recreation? was not just ?carried out in the open air?.  Rather the emphasis from the debates was on allowing the widest possible interpretation subject to the ability to prohibit some activities not conducive to the intent of the act. 

(It is also worth noting that ?open air? qualifies recreation and not access land as some have claimed.)

 

[Stu]

When our ancestors lived in caves would they not have referred to the cave as indoors?

I don't know any to ask. If I was in a cave I'd be 'inside' a cave. Once I'd mastered the finer art of fitting a door frame onto which I'd hang a door, then I might say indoors. What with the clue being in the name...

 

[traff]

When our ancestors lived in caves would they not have referred to the cave as indoors?

Caves don't have doors so you can't be indoors in a cave.

They do have gates though so you could be 'ingates'  :tease:

Seriously though Clive G's concept that gating makes the cave 'not open to the air' only works on single entrance systems. If the gated passage can be accessed via another entrance then both sides of the gate are 'open to the air'.


(post crossed with above)

 

[Roger W]

Some caves do have doors.

A number of show caves have them, and of course Bagshawe is entered through a little stone hut with a door to it.  By any account that one must be "indoors."

 

[grahams]

Some caves do have doors.

A number of show caves have them, and of course Bagshawe is entered through a little stone hut with a door to it.  By any account that one must be "indoors."

When I last went to a football match in about 1972, I had to go through a door to get into the stadium. Does that mean that football when played on a pitch open to the sky, is an indoor game?

 

[Badlad]

Dinah Rose QC considered the Natural England interpretation of 'open air recreation'.  She said, if memory serves me correctly, that it was too technical and narrow and would not lead to a rational outcome.  I think we have proved that right.

 

[richardg]

What an amazing thread. We had a referendum. Its result made crystal clear what the majority of BCA members want. And now Mr Burgess suggests that by lobbying MPs, Tim - who has worked extremely hard on this issue - is in breach of the BCA constitution. Thank you Rhys for your very sensible contribution.

Those of us who support the extension of CROW to caving believe the law already recognises this, but has been misinterpreted. We are not at this stage campaigning to change it.

David Rose has here presented the issue with clear clarity...

Tim Allen THANK YOU!

 

[royfellows]

Dinah Rose QC considered the Natural England interpretation of 'open air recreation'.  She said, if memory serves me correctly, that it was too technical and narrow and would not lead to a rational outcome.  I think we have proved that right.

I am 100% with you on this.

 

[MJenkinson]

Do you not think we are over-thinking this a tad?

Open air recreation (stated by someone without caving specifically in their mind) surely means activities carried out outside of an indoor space / man made space - given this whole debate focuses on access land then I think its safe to say its mainly activities done in the countryside.

Caving, climbing, fell running, bouldering, diving - these are all outdoor activities.

I am sure the originator of the phrase in the legislation did not intend it to be interpreted so strictly.  As per the earlier comment, CROW surely applies to caving - we just want this confirming.

 

[Clive G]

When our ancestors lived in caves would they not have referred to the cave as indoors?

Caves don't have doors so you can't be indoors in a cave.

They do have gates though so you could be 'ingates'  :tease:

Seriously though Clive G's concept that gating makes the cave 'not open to the air' only works on single entrance systems. If the gated passage can be accessed via another entrance then both sides of the gate are 'open to the air'.


(post crossed with above)

Yes, I've made the point that the cave is only enclosed with respect to the entrance that has the gate, meaning you have to use the alternative entrance and not the one with the gate to enter the cave, if you don't have the landowner's permission to pass through the gate. If, however, you can open the gate (without damaging it) from inside the cave, having legitimately entered elsewhere, then I don't see how the landowner can necessarily stop you from exiting the cave via the gate - provided you have the right to cross the land outside the gated cave entrance.

 

[Clive G]

Some caves do have doors.

A number of show caves have them, and of course Bagshawe is entered through a little stone hut with a door to it.  By any account that one must be "indoors."

When I last went to a football match in about 1972, I had to go through a door to get into the stadium. Does that mean that football when played on a pitch open to the sky, is an indoor game?

The analogy I made yesterday is: "If a building has no doors and windows then it is in free communication with the open air. However, as soon as you place doors and windows in position (given the building has an effective roof) then the building has its own air trapped inside and is no longer 'free to the open air'."

Because of the lack of a roof in the stadium, the football game is clearly an 'open-air activity'. The door relates to the seating area from where the game is being watched, which area may or may not have a roof over it, but the 'wall' of the seating area facing the pitch will be 'free to the open air' instead of being enclosed by windows.