Problems with Ambulance 999 wanting post codes

[Burt]

It has been suggested via the cliff rescue team that some training for both the ambuance and fire service in the west country on grid references would be useful.

That suggestion was about 18 months ago, still nothing has happened.

Some friends of mine in the police force took it upon themselves (privatley) to
a) work out how to use a map and give GR's; and
b) do a cave trip to at least see what it's all about "down there".

 

[Bob Smith]

We will no longer rely on USDOD when Europe's Galileo GPS system is up and running in 2013.

It makes sense for emergency vehicles to make use of GPS systems to find addresses quickly in urban locations but there needs to be an alternative to just accepting post codes in rural locations.

erm, maybe a little later than that, the first constellation isn't due to be complete until around 2015, and I suspect there may be some delays before then causing the deadline to slide to the right.

 

[Roger W]

There is an awful lot of this country that doesn't have a post code - rural areas, railway sidings (see Molerat's link), the Far Country in GG, etc. 

And what happens if you are out of your own area (I mean, I know my own postcode, but I haven't got a clue what the postcodes are around Bradwell, f'rinstance, or on Mendip...) and you need to call an ambulance?  "What's the postcode?  Hang on while I see if I can find a house with somebody in that I can ask..."

Using a postcode with a satnav to find somewhere in a built-up area may be very convenient, but I would have though it essential for emergency services to be able to locate places by other, more traditional means when necessary.

 

[Slug]

Far too reliant on technology, what IF there's a serious problem with any gps-system, do they train for such eventualities?

A recent BBC news report showed that mountain rescue call outs were up by about 50% over the last 5 years because too many people ( a.k.a. f***wits) relied on mobile phone app's as their primary source of navigation when out hill walking.....there is NO substitute for basic map reading when outside the "City walls", ( mental not physical ).
The problem with the emergency Services lies, not I think, with the rank and file, but with the administrators , senior managers and accountants, who see only  half, if that, of the picture, and who's primary concern is one of balance sheets and "targets" set by central government, who are themselves so detached from reality as to be frightening.

Burt's friends are to be applauded for their initiative, learning whats it's all about, just in case, but they are, I fear in a minority these days.

Just a thought, a micrometeorite, moving at 60,000 + m.p.h. hits a satelite, and blows it apart, it's debris cloud hits 4 or 5 others, which in turn cause a cascade of shit, taking out most of the rest......result, NO sat-nav, NO Sky T.V., Limited phone and internet, NO space travel for 300 years............just how would the current generation cope ?.

 

[mikem]

There is also now a text system to contact the emergency services if you are operating in poor reception areas, but you do have to pre-register:

http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/news/999-text-service-for-emergency-calls

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

And what happens if you are out of your own area (I mean, I know my own postcode, but I haven't got a clue what the postcodes are around Bradwell, f'rinstance, or on Mendip...) and you need to call an ambulance? 

Access info could easily include postcode so when you're doing your pre-trip checks it would be a synch to find them - i.e. inclusion on websites such as CSCC Access database, Mendip Underground, Bill Chadwick's superb online map etc.. If postcodes are useful to the emergency services then I'd be perfectly happy to assist with providing relevant ones.

I'll put it to the new Mendip Underground compilers and see whether they'd be happy to include them in the cave location info.

 

[Matt]

It might be a good idea to inform readers who are new to this area of discussion, that Cave and Mountain Rescue teams are called by dialing 999 and asking for the Police, not the Ambulance Service.  Thus avoiding most of the eventualities described in this thread! 

The recent Dales campaign tried to remind the general public of this : http://www.cro.org.uk/files/gettingout/A4%20Poster%20-%20No%20Dispenser%2011%20May%2009.pdf


It might come as a surprise to some, but Cave and Mountain rescue teams (and our four legged friends) are also pretty good at finding people who are lost!! 

 

[owd git]

Just a thought, a micrometeorite, moving at 60,000 + m.p.h. hits a satellite, and blows it apart, it's debris cloud hits 4 or 5 others, which in turn cause a cascade of shit, taking out most of the rest......result, NO sat-nav, NO Sky T.V., Limited phone and internet, NO space travel for 300 years............just how would the current generation cope ?.

If the first satellite didn't have a 'post code' how could the micrometeorite hit it?? :-\
O. G.

 

[Bob Mehew]

It might be a good idea to inform readers who are new to this area of discussion, that Cave and Mountain Rescue teams are called by dialing 999 and asking for the Police, not the Ambulance Service.  Thus avoiding most of the eventualities described in this thread! 

It might come as a surprise to some, but Cave and Mountain rescue teams (and our four legged friends) are also pretty good at finding people who are lost!! 

I don't deny that, the problems have arisen primarily when asking for ambulance or fire service.  But if you are near by the road side and just want an ambulance  would you call out mountain rescue?

And what happens if you are out of your own area (I mean, I know my own postcode, but I haven't got a clue what the postcodes are around Bradwell, f'rinstance, or on Mendip...) and you need to call an ambulance? 

Access info could easily include postcode so when you're doing your pre-trip checks it would be a synch to find them - i.e. inclusion on websites such as CSCC Access database, Mendip Underground, Bill Chadwick's superb online map etc.. If postcodes are useful to the emergency services then I'd be perfectly happy to assist with providing relevant ones.

I'll put it to the new Mendip Underground compilers and see whether they'd be happy to include them in the cave location info.

Chris - would you like to sort out post codes for the whole of the UK?  It is a problem affecting more than just caves & cavers.  I accept that a small fraction of our caves will have easily identifiable post codes but most probably will not.  Plus such post codes often cover large areas of land, square miles in extreme cases.  The reports I have seen include cases where having been given a post code the ambulance has then ended up at the diametrically opposite end of the area covered and then taken yet more time to arrive.

And what happens if you are out of your own area (I mean, I know my own postcode, but I haven't got a clue what the postcodes are around Bradwell, f'rinstance, or on Mendip...) and you need to call an ambulance?  "What's the postcode?  Hang on while I see if I can find a house with somebody in that I can ask..."

I have to admit I have yet to hear how this point is dealt with by the ambulance operator.  Clearly a substantial minority of 999 ambulance calls will occur away from home, so they must have a process.  The one I am not allowed to suggest is call the polcie who can cope and get them to call out an ambulance. 

 

[owd git]

A very good thing that you didn't suggest it then Bob!  :
O,G.

 

[cap n chris]

Chris - would you like to sort out post codes for the whole of the UK?  It is a problem affecting more than just caves & cavers.  I accept that a small fraction of our caves will have easily identifiable post codes but most probably will not.  Plus such post codes often cover large areas of land, square miles in extreme cases.  The reports I have seen include cases where having been given a post code the ambulance has then ended up at the diametrically opposite end of the area covered and then taken yet more time to arrive.

I think it's important for someone with local knowledge to (pardon the hateful expression) "ground truth" the postcode via online mapping/GPS to check it's going to be a useful RV for Em Servs. There are bound to be many caves (certainly I can already think of plenty) on Mendip where a useful postcode won't exist and for those caves with one (more likely the layby or houses nearby) it will be necessary to include this info so that anyone calling Em Servs waits at the postcoded location and then completes the overland final leg of the journey to the cave. This could be done by motivated and altruistic local cavers in the various regions. Am awaiting a reply from the compilers of the next MU.

 

[Rhys]

If the ambulances are solely depending upon Sat Navs then I wonder what is their back up plan when the USA goes to war and interferes with the GPS signal?

The USA is constantly at war! As far as I know, they've not felt the need to stop the signal whilst things happened in Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya. The GPS wikipedia page gives info on the US government recognition of the value of civilan use, airline safety and allowing increased accuracy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps

Also, as Paul points out, a European system is also nearly up and running, so this fear of the US turning GPS off is probably outdated.

Rhys

 

[paul]

It might be a good idea to inform readers who are new to this area of discussion, that Cave and Mountain Rescue teams are called by dialing 999 and asking for the Police, not the Ambulance Service.  Thus avoiding most of the eventualities described in this thread! 

It might come as a surprise to some, but Cave and Mountain rescue teams (and our four legged friends) are also pretty good at finding people who are lost!! 

I don't deny that, the problems have arisen primarily when asking for ambulance or fire service.  But if you are near by the road side and just want an ambulance  would you call out mountain rescue?

Or you are picked up on Kinder Scout by MRT members after suffering an accident requiring hospitalisation, carried to the nearest road point. The MRT request an ambulance to attend.

"What's the Post Code?" is the reply....

 

[paul]

Chris - would you like to sort out post codes for the whole of the UK?  It is a problem affecting more than just caves & cavers.  I accept that a small fraction of our caves will have easily identifiable post codes but most probably will not.  Plus such post codes often cover large areas of land, square miles in extreme cases.  The reports I have seen include cases where having been given a post code the ambulance has then ended up at the diametrically opposite end of the area covered and then taken yet more time to arrive.

I think it's important for someone with local knowledge to (pardon the hateful expression) "ground truth" the postcode via online mapping/GPS to check it's going to be a useful RV for Em Servs. There are bound to be many caves (certainly I can already think of plenty) on Mendip where a useful postcode won't exist and for those caves with one (more likely the layby or houses nearby) it will be necessary to include this info so that anyone calling Em Servs waits at the postcoded location and then completes the overland final leg of the journey to the cave. This could be done by motivated and altruistic local cavers in the various regions. Am awaiting a reply from the compilers of the next MU.

I'm sure there will be similar examples in other caving areas which more often than not are located in rural areas.

Post codes in villages may cover a larger area than you think. For example, my post code covers a large proportion of the village I live in - probably at least 30 properties. If you were to have a mishap in a local cave or mine and gave my post code as it is the nearest habitation to the cave or mine, the ambulance crew would probably be wandering around the village for an appreciable time looking for any one of a large number  of houses all with the same post code.

In many cases a cave may be located on farmland and several farms which will share the same post code may be quite a distance from each other and not even approachable via the same route.

The answer is for Grid References to be used where a Post Code is not really going to be accurate enough in determining a location.

 

[Matt]

Bob / Paul

I agree, that's the difficult scenario.  I also suspect it is probably more of an issue in The Peak, than in The Dales and Lakes, due to the adjacency to large metropolitan ambulance services.

What usually happens when an MRT/CRT is involved, is that the road ambulance will be scheduled to meet at a road head, well in advance of its requirement, and it will be a conversation between either the Police and The Ambulance Service, or the Rescue team and The Ambulance Service that will resolve the location... so it has plenty of time to get lost on route several times!!!

That said - I do agree with the issue raised re post codes, and also the centralisation of control rooms with the implication that has for loss of local knowledge on the part of control room staff.

I also agree with the 'loss of GPS debate', because whilst most competent outdoor folk can cope without it - the reliance that is developing in other users is scary (said as a massive fan of GPS).



Matt

 

[cap n chris]

Post codes in villages may cover a larger area than you think. For example, my post code covers a large proportion of the village I live in - probably at least 30 properties. If you were to have a mishap in a local cave or mine and gave my post code as it is the nearest habitation to the cave or mine, the ambulance crew would probably be wandering around the village for an appreciable time looking for any one of a large number  of houses all with the same post code.

Indeed, which is why it would be necessary to check them to be sure of the final RV. Instead of providing people with grid ref meeting place info I routinely provide Sat Nav postcodes and they always turn up at the right place: it should be easy to check the location which a Sat Nav focusses upon and then retrospectively apply that to a callout/access info page as a potentially useful additional piece of information for use by emergency services. By all means have grid references for non-postcode locations but I think the ubiquity of Sat Navs means we should include directions for them, too.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If postcodes often cover half a village or more, then this issue is not just a problem for ramblers but also for the residents of such places. In a spread out community, an emergency call from a dwelling will require more than just a postcode to identify the property where the ambulance is required.

I imagine the postcode request is only the first part of the conversation, which probably continues "is that "XYZ Road? Which house name or number is that please?" None of which is much use when standing by the side of a deserted road with only rocks, grass and a few sheep in view.

 

[Bob Smith]

Also, as Paul points out, a European system is also nearly up and running, so this fear of the US turning GPS off is probably outdated.

Rhys

Erm, as I pointed out the European system isn't nearly up and running, it's at least three years off before a useable constellation is active, and probably going to slide to the right.

 

[Rhys]

...probably going to slide to the right.

eh?

 

[cap n chris]

sumfink to do wiv Gaant charts, reckon.