Problems with Ambulance 999 wanting post codes

[paul]

Rant, rant, campaign campaign. The ramblers do like a good rant followed by a bit of a campaign.

It all comes down to economics. What is the cost of installing a nation-wide emergency system that accepts GPS co-ordinates and I suppose OS co-ordinates if they are different. Compared with the cost of a ambulance. Once this is known someone (not me) can do a cost benefit analysis of the choice between a a co-ordinate based system and extra ambulances.

I'm only guessing but I would expect putting an extra ambulance into some under resourced ambulance station would save more lives than the co-ordinate system.

Please let me know if I am again ruining a good argument ( albeit a five minute one) with common sense and logic.

Why not scrap postcodes, which are crap and change with grid references, teach all children to read a map and how to arrive at a grid reference.
I taught my daughter to read a map when she was eight and a few years later how to work out the grid reference.
She is now 23 and has never yet been lost.

Because Post Codes are for delivering mail and Grid References are for signifying a location on a map?

 

[AA Speleo]

Therefore, the Emergency Services (who as far as I am aware do not deliver the Mail) should use Grid References ?

 

[dunc]

Therefore, the Emergency Services (who as far as I am aware do not deliver the Mail) should use Grid References ?

A system that accepted both would be the best option - postcodes are perfectly fine for towns etc, grid-refs would suit more rural locations.

 

[graham]

Therefore, the Emergency Services (who as far as I am aware do not deliver the Mail) should use Grid References ?

A system that accepted both would be the best option - postcodes are perfectly fine for towns etc, grid-refs would suit more rural locations.

And there is absolutely no reason why a very minor piece of programming cannot produce that, given that the input of a post code must be converted to a grid reference for the GPS to make us of it.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Therefore, the Emergency Services (who as far as I am aware do not deliver the Mail) should use Grid References ?

A system that accepted both would be the best option - postcodes are perfectly fine for towns etc, grid-refs would suit more rural locations.

And there is absolutely no reason why a very minor piece of programming cannot produce that, given that the input of a post code must be converted to a grid reference for the GPS to make us of it.

And for me the real frustration is that given some ambulance trusts have done this, why do a few remain to do so.  There is the separate problem of some 999 ambulance operators not recalling how to use the system, though I can't understand why it can't be built in as part of the option.  But I suspect the underlying answer is that until some one dies as a direct result of the ambulance trust failing to cope with anything other than a post code, then this will not be a priority.  Hence the Ramblers approach.  Please suppor tit.

 

[glyders]

I just don't understand why OS coordinates wasn't written in from the start. It seems so obvious. Even on a street corner I wouldn't know the post code, let along in the countryside.
A few years ago I tried to report an assault to the police. It was on a rural street. I gave them an OS grid ref, a description and directions. The operator spent forever repeating her request for a post code until finally consenting to repeat my directions from my home (where I knew the postcode) to the location to the patrol car. Needless to say that the attackers had dragged the girl off by the police car even started to try to get there!
Luckily mountain rescue (and I hope cave rescue) callouts are managed by police who do understand grid references. Perhaps that would have been the solution in the initial example on this thread - call police, ask for mountain rescue, then when talking to the police handler say you need a road ambulance to such and such a grid?

 

[paul]

Luckily mountain rescue (and I hope cave rescue) callouts are managed by police who do understand grid references. Perhaps that would have been the solution in the initial example on this thread - call police, ask for mountain rescue, then when talking to the police handler say you need a road ambulance to such and such a grid?

In the case of Cave Rescue the Police will pass on whatever information the initiator of the call tells them - usually the name of a cave (which may be wrong) or "Fred's not come home yet and he went caving in Derbyshire..." - which is why it is important to be prepared for a CR Controller to ring back to get more information if you call out Cave Rescue. Usually it's a similar story for Mountain Rescue.

The problem appears to be that you dial 999 and talk to a BT Operator who has a certain scripted procedure to follow. They ask for a Post Code and do not want a Grid Reference. They will NOT procede to the next step and contact the Police or Ambulance service until they run through that procedure. At least that appeared to be the case when we dialled 999. We eventually got an ambulance by repeatedly and inistently pointing out to the Operator that there was no way we could give them a Post Code but insisted that they pass on the details of which main road we were on and what location we were on that main road.

I posted the initial example. We were stood by a main road and required an ambulance. Why initiate a MR call-out and add even more delay before an ambulance arrives when all we required was an ambulance to arrive at a clearly identified roadside location?

 

[Geoff R]

with my TomTom, I press 'navigate to'  then '>'  then 'Latitude Longitude' and then lo and behold I can use Lat/Long inputs found on many walkers GPS units (or integrated in mobile phones) for it to take me down the necessary roads to this location 

My point is that if this is true (and likely so) for all ambulance Sat Nav kit, then its training that's perhaps needed for the 999 operator and for the crew     

 

[paul]

with my TomTom, I press 'navigate to'  then '>'  then 'Latitude Longitude' and then lo and behold I can use Lat/Long inputs found on many walkers GPS units (or integrated in mobile phones) for it to take me down the necessary roads to this location 

My point is that if this is true (and likely so) for all ambulance Sat Nav kit, then its training that's perhaps needed for the 999 operator and for the crew     

As I said: The problem appears to be that you dial 999 and talk to a BT Operator who has a certain scripted procedure to follow. They ask for a Post Code and do not want a Grid Reference. They will NOT procede to the next step and contact the Police or Ambulance service until they run through that procedure.

It doesn't matter what training the Ambulance crew have or don't have if the BT Operator answering the '999' call won't progress the call any further. 

 

[Geoff R]

OK, then delete 'training' for the 999 operator and insert 'change of procedure'   

However it reads, perhaps 'just maybe' no new investment in kit is needed.
 

 

[Peter Burgess]

So, let's get back to basics. Postcodes are to help with sorting and delivering the post. (The clue is in the name, folks). As such how can they possibly be of any use in directing an ambulance to somewhere where no mail has ever been delivered or is ever likely to be delivered? Somebody needs to go back to square one and rethink this odd operators' procedure!

 

[Bob Mehew]

As I said: The problem appears to be that you dial 999 and talk to a BT Operator who has a certain scripted procedure to follow. They ask for a Post Code and do not want a Grid Reference. They will NOT procede to the next step and contact the Police or Ambulance service until they run through that procedure.

As I understand the process, when you dial 999, you first get an operator (which may or may not be BT) who asks you "Which service?" and then transfers you to the operator for that service.  I thought is was the service operator who asks for the post code.  Am I wrong?  Or is it different across the country?

A few years ago I tried to report an assault to the police. It was on a rural street. I gave them an OS grid ref, a description and directions. The operator spent forever repeating her request for a post code until finally consenting to repeat my directions from my home (where I knew the postcode) to the location to the patrol car. Needless to say that the attackers had dragged the girl off by the police car even started to try to get there!
Luckily mountain rescue (and I hope cave rescue) callouts are managed by police who do understand grid references. Perhaps that would have been the solution in the initial example on this thread - call police, ask for mountain rescue, then when talking to the police handler say you need a road ambulance to such and such a grid?

Our presumption was that the police service operator could cope with grid reference.  What you say is worrying.  Could you PM me with details?

 

[Roger W]

Just got back from a week at Keswick.  Picked up a Lake District National Park leaflet there on "Safety on the Fells," which says that in an emergency you should "call 999 for Cumbrian police, giving... an accurate location (grid reference is best)."

 

[barrabus]

... in an emergency you should "call 999 for Cumbrian police, giving... an accurate location (grid reference is best)."

A grid reference and a description is best. One incorrect digit in a grid reference can put your location out by a few miles....

 

[Roger W]

Very true.  But at least the Cumbria police aren't asking for the postcode when you're stuck on top of a fell...

 

[Bob Mehew]

So far as I can work out all police forces do have the software to cope with grid references, though I did pick up one case where they failed (see Gylders on 26 June above).  I sense that the Fire & Rescue are likely to be similarly challenged as the Ambulance Trusts are.