"Responsibility" for self help / rescue

[Ian P]

Quote:

"The question should be, when should this training take place and at what level of SRT proficiency should an individual be introduced to Rescue techniques."



As a continuous process of learning, from how to put a harness on continuing on to more advanced techniques ?
Where do people get their SRT/ ladder lifeline training from now ?  Rescue type skills and other "advanced" skills could just continue from there ?

I suppose as Andrewmc says, people are generally comfortable with what they know and are happy with their skill set.

Accessible training can only help people increase their skill set ?

Training grants are available for clubs, but I don't think they are very well taken up ?

Maybe a change of the grant system, whereby individuals can apply for a small grant to go towards a training workshop of their choice. Intro to SRT, rigging for SRT, Ladder and Lifeline skills, surveying, boulder moving, photograpy, first aid etc etc.

Various training workshops put on by ANYBODY who has the necessary skills. (Obviously "necessary skills" could be subjective  !)

As a "relative" newcomer to the sport I would have liked the opportunity to go on a couple of workshop days, and would have been happy to pay a small fee (?40 - ?50 per day ?)

Peer teaching has an important place in British caving, but can sometimes be difficult to access, and teaching people can be very time consuming, and requires a bit of personal sacrifice.

(Self disclosure : As a part time instructor I am "pro training" but none of the above has anything at all to do with getting more work. Banging nails into bits of wood is far more profitable !! )

 

[Kenilworth]

What's wrong with self-training? SRT is not complicated. Since this is a thread about responsibility, why can people not take responsibility for their own skills?

Peer training is appropriate too of course, but there is more than enough published material, online and in print, to allow anyone (along with practice and experimentation) to become proficient without ever having a moment's personal instruction from anyone. As evidenced in my own case. I'm timid in physically dangerous situations and tend toward defeatism, pessimism, and cowardice. But no one taught me SRT or rescue techniques. I learned them on my own because I wanted to be safe and capable of dealing with difficult underground situations.

So training should take place whenever a person decides to take responsibility for themselves. And no matter how they are trained they have no business on rope underground until they accept that responsibility.

 

[cap n chris]

Pretty sure people join clubs because they want to progress into caving and to learn how to become a caver; the obvious source of coaching is therefore within a club. Clubs that do not provide structured or progressive tutorials to new members are missing a trick and should raise their game.

 

[BradW]

What's wrong with self-training? SRT is not complicated. Since this is a thread about responsibility, why can people not take responsibility for their own skills?

Nothing if that's what someone prefers. Some people prefer others to help them. And some are happy to pay for that. Cavers have the freedom to choose. Long may it stay thus.

 

[cavemanmike]

I agree with some of what Kenilworth is saying.are club has a srt training program and the last part of that training involves rescue techniques.
Although rescue techniques Are just touched on not everyone carry it on after the initial training but the ones that do are the ones that show leadership skills.not everyone what's to take responsibility for anything some people just want to follow

 

[Ian P]

What's wrong with self-training? SRT is not complicated. Since this is a thread about responsibility, why can people not take responsibility for their own skills?

Nothing if that's what someone prefers. Some people prefer others to help them. And some are happy to pay for that. Cavers have the freedom to choose. Long may it stay thus.

 

[cooleycr]

I expect that many of us have at least an understanding of basic First Aid techniques, and would be able to assist colleagues (or oneself), making them comfortable and hopefully preventing further complication, but in these days of people making stupid claims against every Tom, Dick and Harry, would this cross one's mind when attempting treatment/ self-rescue, or would we leave it to those most proficient?

What about if there are members of a Cave Rescue Organisation present on the trip, should they act alone, in good faith, or call their colleagues to assist?

Drawing analogies is good, however, as already raised, each and every situation is, though invariably similar to others, unique to that situation.
Everyone who drives a motor vehicle should have the basic understanding/ ability to change a wheel, however, one should NEVER attempt this on a motorway when it is the offside that is affected - you have to call the rescue company of your choice, and the same applies to caving situations - sometimes you have to shrug off the bravado / embaressment and JFDI.

Would you buy a house without knowing, in an emergency, how to isolate the water supply, the gas, the electrical circuits etc.?
Basic things that everyone should know, the same as applies to caving, climbing, putting on a condom...

I can see that, perhaps initially, there is a certain feeling of "I am a Cave Rescuer" as there is in any similar position in any walk of life - I, for example, am the Building Incident Controller at my place of work and the first time I was called upon, I threw on my high viz. (emblazoned with BIC on the front and back), grabbed my duty clipboard and raced to the scene (complete with imaginary "blues and twos") and set to it.
And yes, it was exciting.......the first time.....and then it became, as previously mentioned, not so much fun in the snow, in the middle of the night and then up again at 05:40 for work.
It takes dedication to be a volunteer and everyone involved should be applauded, NOT derided.

Would I call the local C.R.O. if the situation arose? - hell yes!
Would I feel embaressed when people I knew (and often caved with) turned up to help me? - probably, but definately glad.
Would they take the piss ? - I would bloody well hope so!

So the most important issue to focus on here, is that the C.R.O. maintain details of any call-out / rescue and in the long term, we, as cavers, benefit from the experiences and lessons learned.

 

[Kenilworth]

What's wrong with self-training? SRT is not complicated. Since this is a thread about responsibility, why can people not take responsibility for their own skills?

Nothing if that's what someone prefers. Some people prefer others to help them. And some are happy to pay for that. Cavers have the freedom to choose. Long may it stay thus.

I agree completely. Only let's not confuse the right to choose with the "right to be trained" or the right to let someone else be reponsible for our ultimate safety.

 

[paul]

Paul, are you claiming that the forty-seven million cavers and emergency personnel that show up at a cave rescue are all there because they want to help the victim?

Mostly and definitely Yes.

Usually there may be a single member of the Police in attendance (as I already said rescue is their responsibility but they quite rightly pass on the task to those who are competent to deal with the incident, i.e, cavers). Obviously if an ambulance is required at a later stage then it will be requested. Sometimes Fire and Rescue personnel will be involved on the surface, maybe to provide lighting or to help pump excess water. But the vast majority of those who turn up by far are cavers.

They are cavers who want to help other cavers when they need that help. Usually they are just trying to put something back into caving and live near a popular caving area, and are all too aware that on occasion, they too might be grateful that some fellow cavers are only too willing to turn up and help them if they ever need it.

 

[Peregrina]

I expect that many of us have at least an understanding of basic First Aid techniques, and would be able to assist colleagues (or oneself), making them comfortable and hopefully preventing further complication, but in these days of people making stupid claims against every Tom, Dick and Harry, would this cross one's mind when attempting treatment/ self-rescue, or would we leave it to those most proficient?

I believe first responders have been successfully sued in the USA a few times, despite the Good Samaritan laws that are supposed to prevent that. Legal issues were discussed on first aid courses I have done and if I remember correctly the take-away message was that you will be fine unless you do anything really irresponsible that worsens the situation, and act within your level of training. You should have asked for consent before giving any aid to a conscious person, which I imagine helps protect you.

The instructors on my first aid course in the US also suggested, if helping strangers, that you don't actually tell anyone your name and then quietly leave when emergency medical services turn up.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Paul, are you claiming that the forty-seven million cavers and emergency personnel that show up at a cave rescue are all there because they want to help the victim?

Mostly and definitely Yes.

Usually there may be a single member of the Police in attendance (as I already said rescue is their responsibility but they quite rightly pass on the task to those who are competent to deal with the incident, i.e, cavers). Obviously if an ambulance is required at a later stage then it will be requested. Sometimes Fire and Rescue personnel will be involved on the surface, maybe to provide lighting or to help pump excess water. But the vast majority of those who turn up by far are cavers.

They are cavers who want to help other cavers when they need that help. Usually they are just trying to put something back into caving and live near a popular caving area, and are all too aware that on occasion, they too might be grateful that some fellow cavers are only too willing to turn up and help them if they ever need it.

Spot on Paul.

My experience is as a long standing and dyed-in-the-wool Dales caver but I think it is equally true in other caving regions in the UK. We are a fraternity and so you could say that all rescues are self-rescues.

Caving outside the UK is a different thing where cavers are wise to assume there is no cave rescue service. But the OP doesn't make a distinction between caving at home or abroad.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Agreed. An easy self-rescue. Even substituting "common sense" or "foresight" for "coaching". Calling for rescue in a case like this would be the equivalent of calling for roadside assistance because of a flat tire... which happens all the time. Many drivers and many cavers, especially vertical cavers, take no responsibility for themselves and depend on the "trip leader" or cave rescue to resolve minor incidents. In such cases cave rescuers ought to make it clear to the "victim" that they are unqualified and should be ashamed of themselves.

Cave rescue in the UK is carried out by cavers acting on support of the Police who have the primary responsibility for inland search and rescue. Cave rescue is all about helping others who need help, and usually only other cavers can render that help. Luckily we have relatively few call-outs in the UK, especially in comparison to Mountain Rescue.

There is a tradition of not passing judgement on the reasons which ended up with a rescue team being called out in case it would deter someone inf the future from calling out for help when they really need it.

That's a foolish tradition. No one has a right to be rescued, and no one has a right to ignore their personal responsibilities. If it is obvious that gross ignorance or negligence was the cause of the incident, then the "victim" should be told in a very staightforward way that they have put or are putting themselves at risk. A judgment-free rescue only encourages more ignorant behavior.

Paul, are you claiming that the forty-seven million cavers and emergency personnel that show up at a cave rescue are all there because they want to help the victim?

Kenilworth, how dare you? Who are you calling foolish? Look in a mirror. You jump in on this forum when you have never been caving outside America and give us you homespun 'wisdom' on all manner of subjects you have no experience of.

 

[Wet Spaniel]

My experience is as a long standing and dyed-in-the-wool Dales caver but I think it is equally true in other caving regions in the UK. We are a fraternity and so you could say that all rescues are self-rescues.

I couldn't agree more, this really came to light with me a couple of months back when a pair of cavers spotted a CRO landrover (on a training session) and their first action was walk over and offer any help they could - they assumed it was on a call out.  No egos, no fisticuffs to get to the victim first, just a genuine wish to help out their fellow cavers.

 

[BradW]

That's a foolish tradition. No one has a right to be rescued, and no one has a right to ignore their personal responsibilities. If it is obvious that gross ignorance or negligence was the cause of the incident, then the "victim" should be told in a very staightforward way that they have put or are putting themselves at risk. A judgment-free rescue only encourages more ignorant behavior.

No, sir. It is a tradition of altruism. It serves to maintain rescue expertise that is highly skilled and with minimal cost to anyone save those who wish to help pay for it, voluntarily. It does not encourage foolish and careless caving. Perhaps one should look at the matter of duty rather than rights. Many cavers simply feel it is their duty to get involved in rescue. One good thing about this way of doing things is that those who involve themselves in rescue, even if only in a peripheral way, is that is focusses the mind of the caver into becoming a safer caver themselves, which inevitable trickles down to those they go caving with.

 

[domestosbend]

Just to hopefully clarify.

"Self rescue" meant as a group.
I understand individually we can quite often get out of some tricky situations.

Equipment wise I was more thinking about assisting up pitches. (Whilst agreeing with Bob about other items).

Completely agree about more serious issues such as broken bones etc. Call out cave rescue.

Thinking more of much simpler incidents.

As a "Litmus test" how about:-

In a small group you have descended the small pitch from Valley entrance into the streamway.  You have used a ladder and lifeline, waist belay and bowline tied around your waist.
Someone sprains their ankle, they can crawl but not climb a ladder.

The only option (??) is to call for help.

Are you sat at the bottom of the pitch thinking:
a) No problem, cave rescue like to come out and It will be no problem. I will not feel embarrassed telling my peers about it.
Or
b) Feeling a bit embarrassed, wishing you had a bit of extra kit so as a team you could all get out under your own steam. 

That would be an exceptionally easy self rescue, provided anyone in the group had even the most basic coaching regarding how to solve it, with no additional or specialist equipment than you would already have to rig it (e.g. rope, ladder, carabiner x 2).

Err ...I might be demonstrating my lack of rescue skills but surely  it wouldn't be that easy - getting someone who cant weight bear up a pitch, no harnesses and 2 krabs - which might be used up in rigging and a small party ?

 

[alastairgott]

It might be useful for Kenilworth to read about the UK History of Cave rescue.

http://www.caverescue.org.uk/about-cave-rescue/brief-history/

Also of use to Kenilworth may be an excerpt of writing from a much larger article produced by Whitehouse (2017)
"...In 1933, two of the early clubs, the Rucksack Club and the Fell and Rock Climbing Club, formed a ?Joint Stretcher Committee? to produce something better than the five bar gate that legend tells us was then standard kit. One of them, the Rucksack Club, included caving among its members? lesser activities and, according to its website it still does.
In 1935 the committee recommended the Thomas stretcher (named after one of its members) for mountain rescues and proposed that a stretcher and other rescue equipment and supplies should be stored by clubs in suitably located rescue posts for the free use of anyone in need of them. Actual rescues still remained in the hands of ad hoc groups formed when needed. There were at the time no established rescue teams ? voluntary or otherwise.
However, later the same year did see the formation of the first volunteer rescue team, the Cave Rescue Organisation in the Yorkshire Dales. It came about because cavers realised that rescues from the increasingly deeper, longer and more challenging caves then being discovered and explored required skills and knowledge that only experienced
cavers possessed. The CRO is now one of the dual role surface and underground teams but until the early 1960?s all its work was underground. The following year a second underground rescue team, the Mendip Rescue Organization (now Mendip Cave Rescue) was formed in Somerset.
Also in 1936 the Joint Stretcher Committee changed its name to the First Aid Committee of British Mountaineering Clubs and took on board other clubs and organisations as members. Within a few years its membership had grown to nine clubs (four of them at least including caving among members? interests), the YHA, the Ramblers association, some university clubs and the Cave Rescue Organisation...."

There were many more iterations of the UK Cave rescue organisations. And in the larger article there are many many comparisons with Mountain rescue.

But the key point is that Cave rescuing is very much a part of the longstanding UK caving Identity, and one which many of us would like to see continue. It has been around for nearly as long as your Empire State building. In our eyes it is an icon of our continued support for each other, you will not win any friends over here by belittling it!

 

[Simon Wilson]

This might be a good place to remind people of the sacrifices made by cave rescuers.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20089.msg257663#msg257663

There have been other acts of outstanding heroism. I am in awe of the acts made during a rescue in Diccan which almost certainly saved a life.

 

[Ian Ball]

Reply No.39

 

[Alex]

KenilWorth: I had not read your response until now about cave rescuers and other emergency services are being liars. I choose to generally ignore it as I assume you are a Trump supporter, with very right wing views like that. And Trump supporters well, they are not worth the time of day.

As for your comment itself, there may be a few out there who are in it for the politics and selfish reasons, but people like that tend to be shown the door, there is no one I know like that our team.

 

[cap n chris]

Just to hopefully clarify.

"Self rescue" meant as a group.
I understand individually we can quite often get out of some tricky situations.

Equipment wise I was more thinking about assisting up pitches. (Whilst agreeing with Bob about other items).

Completely agree about more serious issues such as broken bones etc. Call out cave rescue.

Thinking more of much simpler incidents.

As a "Litmus test" how about:-

In a small group you have descended the small pitch from Valley entrance into the streamway.  You have used a ladder and lifeline, waist belay and bowline tied around your waist.
Someone sprains their ankle, they can crawl but not climb a ladder.

The only option (??) is to call for help.

Are you sat at the bottom of the pitch thinking:
a) No problem, cave rescue like to come out and It will be no problem. I will not feel embarrassed telling my peers about it.
Or
b) Feeling a bit embarrassed, wishing you had a bit of extra kit so as a team you could all get out under your own steam. 

That would be an exceptionally easy self rescue, provided anyone in the group had even the most basic coaching regarding how to solve it, with no additional or specialist equipment than you would already have to rig it (e.g. rope, ladder, carabiner x 2).

Err ...I might be demonstrating my lack of rescue skills but surely  it wouldn't be that easy - getting someone who cant weight bear up a pitch, no harnesses and 2 krabs - which might be used up in rigging and a small party ?

Yes. At least 2 methods spring to mind as being easy, achieved without additional equipment and would solve the difficulties within moments.