cavemanmike
Well-known member
I usually carry a couple of pulley's on an srt trip cos you never know and there's no weight in them
"Responsibility" for self help / rescue
- Thread starter Ian P
- Start date
cap n chris
Well-known member
Ian P said:
That would be an exceptionally easy self rescue, provided anyone in the group had even the most basic coaching regarding how to solve it, with no additional or specialist equipment than you would already have to rig it (e.g. rope, ladder, carabiner x 2).
Kenilworth
New member
RichardB1983 said:
My point was not that the risks and consequences are the same, but that our responsibilities are. It is impossible to plan for every situation and pointless to try, but we ought to, as Pete said, try to understand the consequences of whatever we do and act accordingly. "Accordingly" will mean different things depending on our personal preferences, tolerances, and values.
Kenilworth
New member
Cap'n Chris said:
Agreed. An easy self-rescue. Even substituting "common sense" or "foresight" for "coaching". Calling for rescue in a case like this would be the equivalent of calling for roadside assistance because of a flat tire... which happens all the time. Many drivers and many cavers, especially vertical cavers, take no responsibility for themselves and depend on the "trip leader" or cave rescue to resolve minor incidents. In such cases cave rescuers ought to make it clear to the "victim" that they are unqualified and should be ashamed of themselves.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
If I broke my arm again I would rely on my own resources and the people with me.
paul
Moderator
Kenilworth said:
Cave rescue in the UK is carried out by cavers acting on support of the Police who have the primary responsibility for inland search and rescue. Cave rescue is all about helping others who need help, and usually only other cavers can render that help. Luckily we have relatively few call-outs in the UK, especially in comparison to Mountain Rescue.
There is a tradition of not passing judgement on the reasons which ended up with a rescue team being called out in case it would deter someone inf the future from calling out for help when they really need it.
And in response to your previous comments, " enjoy the excitement, the politics, and the ego games of a rescue situation. Lots of them say that this isn't so, that they are selfless volunteers who care about nothing except the well-being of their fellow man. Lots of them are liars. " I don't think that when you are stood in the freezing rain on the side of a moor after having got out of a warm bed in the early hours of the morning, putting on cold and dirty caving gear from earlier in the day and wondering when you will get back to that bed before having to get up again at 6 am to go to work that "excitement, the politics, and the ego games of a rescue situation" is in the forefront of your thoughts.
Cave_Troll
Active member
I had to call out the AA once for a flat tyre.
The AA man eventually had to use a sledge hammer to free the seized wheel nut.
The AA man eventually had to use a sledge hammer to free the seized wheel nut.
alastairgott
Well-known member
There have been 3 times when me or others have considered calling out in the last 24 months.
The first, I actually called out my fellow teammates, All the Information pointed towards a potential callout situation.
There was no callout on the board, but I knew where they were going.
I'd been around in the morning and all the team were up and out of bed.
I spoke to the farmer mid evening, and asked him whether he thought the team had gone down in the morning. (which he did)
I then proceeded to ask advise from one of the controllers, and after a few shuttles up and down the hill, I'd worked out that they were neither in the hut nor in a pub.
Together, we called the team out, typically as soon as the car lights were seen the first member of the team was heard.
A false callout, I felt rubbish for dragging people out of bed, but I didn't hear many bad words about calling the team out. The experience has changed my attitude towards people who don't leave callouts though (they can wait until morning!)
The second, I received a call from a member of a team up at rowter farm, the team-member had exited Titan on a Sunday with an injured leg, but had managed to get himself across the hill towards the farm without incident. After the slow walk back (injured Leg) and a further 30mins-1hour wait the individual became worried about the rest of his team.
I packed up a 70m rope into the car, with a stop and my SRT kit and drove to Rowter. I found the individual at the farm, and we proceeded (without rope) toward Titan, to check the entrance. as we arrived we heard someone coming up the shaft.
It transpired that the person who lent them ropes had arranged the ropes such that there were two knot passes on Titan, this provided some "fun" for the team exiting whilst tired.
The Third, an infamous caver did not leave a callout, thus enacting my self-inflicted "don't callout till morning" rule.
Morning arrived, still no sign, two people set out to check the layby and the mine, no ropes down the entrance but the car was still there.
Much fun was had for the individuals going to check the mine, calling-out, but being delayed whilst details were corroborated. A similar call was made the night before, but by the individual, who required assistance down the hill. The individual was escorted/forced to A&E by an overland rescue team, leaving a distinctive car in the layby.
The first, I actually called out my fellow teammates, All the Information pointed towards a potential callout situation.
There was no callout on the board, but I knew where they were going.
I'd been around in the morning and all the team were up and out of bed.
I spoke to the farmer mid evening, and asked him whether he thought the team had gone down in the morning. (which he did)
I then proceeded to ask advise from one of the controllers, and after a few shuttles up and down the hill, I'd worked out that they were neither in the hut nor in a pub.
Together, we called the team out, typically as soon as the car lights were seen the first member of the team was heard.
A false callout, I felt rubbish for dragging people out of bed, but I didn't hear many bad words about calling the team out. The experience has changed my attitude towards people who don't leave callouts though (they can wait until morning!)
The second, I received a call from a member of a team up at rowter farm, the team-member had exited Titan on a Sunday with an injured leg, but had managed to get himself across the hill towards the farm without incident. After the slow walk back (injured Leg) and a further 30mins-1hour wait the individual became worried about the rest of his team.
I packed up a 70m rope into the car, with a stop and my SRT kit and drove to Rowter. I found the individual at the farm, and we proceeded (without rope) toward Titan, to check the entrance. as we arrived we heard someone coming up the shaft.
It transpired that the person who lent them ropes had arranged the ropes such that there were two knot passes on Titan, this provided some "fun" for the team exiting whilst tired.
The Third, an infamous caver did not leave a callout, thus enacting my self-inflicted "don't callout till morning" rule.
Morning arrived, still no sign, two people set out to check the layby and the mine, no ropes down the entrance but the car was still there.
Much fun was had for the individuals going to check the mine, calling-out, but being delayed whilst details were corroborated. A similar call was made the night before, but by the individual, who required assistance down the hill. The individual was escorted/forced to A&E by an overland rescue team, leaving a distinctive car in the layby.
A_Northerner
Active member
Cave_Troll said:
Can you use a sledge-hammer to free a stuck fresher Twebb?
alastairgott
Well-known member
There is another view which may be relevant to the OP.
"Please could I have some rescue training because I'm going on Expedition".
It's a logically sound proposition, but some people may believe that this training should take place as a matter of course.
The question should be, when should this training take place and at what level of SRT proficiency should an individual be introduced to Rescue techniques.
At university this was typically a late second term and third term topic. So (I guess) within the first year of someone's caving "career". Unfortunately, non university cavers tend not to have their lives segmented by these terms, so how is it best to introduce these topics?
"Please could I have some rescue training because I'm going on Expedition".
It's a logically sound proposition, but some people may believe that this training should take place as a matter of course.
The question should be, when should this training take place and at what level of SRT proficiency should an individual be introduced to Rescue techniques.
At university this was typically a late second term and third term topic. So (I guess) within the first year of someone's caving "career". Unfortunately, non university cavers tend not to have their lives segmented by these terms, so how is it best to introduce these topics?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
alastairgott said:
The other consideration is that generally people are OK at what they normally do, i.e. 'normal' SRT. As soon as people go outside that they at first struggle (just watch someone trying to do something familiar in a new way or with a different type of equipment). Secondly people will inevitably be less competent in the panic/rush of a rescue situation. So actually I think any kind of complex rescue is a way, way harder skill to use in practice than simple SRT. The risk of screwing it up is potentially large, or even doing it safely but faffing so much/rigging everything into a cluster that they would have been better off just looking after the casualty and waiting for rescue...
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
There is nothing that has not been involved in rescuing me -
Helicopter, Lifeboat, Fire Brigade, Ambulance, Cave rescue, HART Team , Fishing boat, Paramedics, Ambulance, Duncan Price. I have been taken to at least 4 different hospitals. I am an expert at being an idiot. I would still do my utter best to get out of the situation myself as I am fully aware what the complete and utter rescue overkill and ensuing bad publicity are like.
Helicopter, Lifeboat, Fire Brigade, Ambulance, Cave rescue, HART Team , Fishing boat, Paramedics, Ambulance, Duncan Price. I have been taken to at least 4 different hospitals. I am an expert at being an idiot. I would still do my utter best to get out of the situation myself as I am fully aware what the complete and utter rescue overkill and ensuing bad publicity are like.
glyders
Member
My worst self-evacuation (no jokes about curries) was in a group of three when I dislocated a finger. The hardest bit of that was changing gears on the drive to the hospital!
Luckily when leading a group, the worst I've had to deal with was an exhausted person from the first sump in Swildons (turned out he'd lied about eating breakfast). That was resolved with a lot of bullying on the flat bits, short-roping up scrambles and a haul up the pitch.
In the example of a badly twisted ankle, such that it cannot bear weight, I might well consider summoning help. That would be true on a hillside or in a cave. Helping someone who cannot walk to travel any distance will rapidly tire even a decent-sized group. I would certainly get them moving towards the surface if at all possible, and in fact a vertical pitch is likely to be one of the easier parts of that to accomplish.
Luckily when leading a group, the worst I've had to deal with was an exhausted person from the first sump in Swildons (turned out he'd lied about eating breakfast). That was resolved with a lot of bullying on the flat bits, short-roping up scrambles and a haul up the pitch.
In the example of a badly twisted ankle, such that it cannot bear weight, I might well consider summoning help. That would be true on a hillside or in a cave. Helping someone who cannot walk to travel any distance will rapidly tire even a decent-sized group. I would certainly get them moving towards the surface if at all possible, and in fact a vertical pitch is likely to be one of the easier parts of that to accomplish.
Kenilworth
New member
paul said:
That's a foolish tradition. No one has a right to be rescued, and no one has a right to ignore their personal responsibilities. If it is obvious that gross ignorance or negligence was the cause of the incident, then the "victim" should be told in a very staightforward way that they have put or are putting themselves at risk. A judgment-free rescue only encourages more ignorant behavior.
Paul, are you claiming that the forty-seven million cavers and emergency personnel that show up at a cave rescue are all there because they want to help the victim?
cavemanmike
Well-known member
a few years ago a small group where going into swildons when one of the group slipped and broke his collar bone. the same small group got him up the short 20 and out to a&e in no time .
like i said it depends on who you are with.(and pain killers hep)
like i said it depends on who you are with.(and pain killers hep)
Kenilworth
New member
droid said:
I see. That's good to hear.
