"Responsibility" for self help / rescue

alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
Ah, I see, The clue is that you're standing with a Bowline already tied around your waist!

Ensure your friend is well fastened to one end of the rope so they are free to hang (and are happy to fend off the walls with their hands).
Climb to the top of the pitch and then attach the rope to yourself as close to the bolt as possible and "jump" off the pitch. You're now "counterbalancing" your friend, so as long as their not more porkly than you, they should see the top of the pitch in no time.

If they're quite a bit lighter than you, then you could hard rig one knot into the bolt, attach a karabiner to the bolt and run the rope through the karabiner, leaving a bight. with the Bight you attach yourself in with a karabiner, and you'll be at a 2:1 disadvantage ie. every "one" you go down the casualty goes up "2", this effectively makes the casualty artificially "heavier" so you don't go flying down the pitch.

Or if the casualty is heavier, then you will need to switch the disadvantage. ie. Hard rig the rope for your casualty to the top bolt and send the bight down to the Casualties "D ring" or karabiner, then thread this through the top karabiner.
with the Bowline round your waist you can now "Jump" off and your heavier Casualty can go up "1" as you go down "2", clearly you will reach the bottom before your casualty reaches the top. so you might need to think of a way to "Lock them off" at the top before attaching a friend to the rope.
 
F

Fulk

Well-known member
Well, having hung off a bowline tied round my waist, I'm not so sure that I'd like to be hauled (or to counter-balance someone) by this method.

Wouldn't it be better to tie some sort of 'bunny's ear' knot in the end of the rope to make a kind of sit harness, then wrap the rope round their chest to prevent them falling over backwards (if you had a long enough rope, of course)?
 
cavemanmike

cavemanmike

Well-known member
Instead of jumping off yourself tie the rope around a large boulder (afer estimating the weight of you casualty) and chuck the boulder over the edge and you can catch him/ her on the way up
 
Mark Wright

Mark Wright

Active member
cavemanmike said:
Instead of jumping off yourself tie the rope around a large boulder (afer estimating the weight of you casualty) and chuck the boulder over the edge and you can catch him/ her on the way up
Click to expand...

That idea reminded me of this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Kzje9nF4A

Mark
 
F

Fulk

Well-known member
Hi Mark, is the song based on:

'The Bricklayer's Lament' - by Gerard Hoffnung?

(or is it vice versa)?
 
K

Kenilworth

New member
Alex said:
KenilWorth: I had not read your response until now about cave rescuers and other emergency services are being liars. I choose to generally ignore it as I assume you are a Trump supporter, with very right wing views like that. And Trump supporters well, they are not worth the time of day.

As for your comment itself, there may be a few out there who are in it for the politics and selfish reasons, but people like that tend to be shown the door, there is no one I know like that our team.
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I do not support any political candidate or party Alex, I am only trying my best to tell the truth.
Thanks for the many replies concerning UK rescue culture. Once again there is perhaps a degree of difference in our cultures. Though not a rescue volunteer in the formal sense, I have been on hand during rescue situations, have read every account of them available to me (American Caving Accidents is a substantial long-term documentation) and have witnessed the shameless glory-hounding that follows a rescue event. I have been left sickened by the competitive party atmosphere and disrespect for the victims of the rescue. I have no reservations in saying that some rescuers I personally know are in it for bragging rights and couldn't care less about the victim.

Is the UK the opposite? Perhaps, but I cannot accept that human weakness isn't manifest there too.

Once I was burning a fence row with my dad and the volunteer fire dept arrived with two trucks, a few pickups, and about a half dozen selfless volunteers. They swarmed over our little field with hoses and rakes, put out the fire, and loosed the only stock we had there, an ancient donkey. It was a modest fire, in no way out of control, legal, and we had not asked for help.

This experience has been a pretty close analogy to the US cave rescue scene.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Kenilworth said:
Alex said:
KenilWorth: I had not read your response until now about cave rescuers and other emergency services are being liars. I choose to generally ignore it as I assume you are a Trump supporter, with very right wing views like that. And Trump supporters well, they are not worth the time of day.

As for your comment itself, there may be a few out there who are in it for the politics and selfish reasons, but people like that tend to be shown the door, there is no one I know like that our team.
Click to expand...

I do not support any political candidate or party Alex, I am only trying my best to tell the truth.
Thanks for the many replies concerning UK rescue culture. Once again there is perhaps a degree of difference in our cultures. Though not a rescue volunteer in the formal sense, I have been on hand during rescue situations, have read every account of them available to me (American Caving Accidents is a substantial long-term documentation) and have witnessed the shameless glory-hounding that follows a rescue event. I have been left sickened by the competitive party atmosphere and disrespect for the victims of the rescue. I have no reservations in saying that some rescuers I personally know are in it for bragging rights and couldn't care less about the victim.

Is the UK the opposite? Perhaps, but I cannot accept that human weakness isn't manifest there too.
Click to expand...

Yes. it is the opposite in the UK, assuming that your opinions of US cave rescue are true.

Many incidents go unreported in the Press, etc. If there is a call for help, then fellow cavers provide that help. Cavers helping cavers (or sometimes animals, see https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=22744.0 for a recent example) because they feel it is the right thing to do.
 
K

Kenilworth

New member
"But the key point is that Cave rescuing is very much a part of the longstanding UK caving Identity, and one which many of us would like to see continue. It has been around for nearly as long as your Empire State building. In our eyes it is an icon of our continued support for each other, you will not win any friends over here by belittling it!"

Winning friends is about as useful to me as is the Empire State Building...
Cave rescue is a good thing with good people involved. I am not belittling it, only saying that individual cavers shouldn't depend on it to the extent that they neglect their own skills or preparation. This subject of the attitude of rescuers came up because a previous post suggested that rescuers want to know about every incident, whether their help is needed or not. This fit with my experience of US rescue being an adventure/ego hobby and I went too far to make that connection, which may not be applicable in tbe UK.
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
About as much use as an air freshener in a pig farm then.

Kenilworth said:
This subject of the attitude of rescuers came up because a previous post suggested that rescuers want to know about every incident, whether their help is needed or not.
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Not familiar with the original topic but in some cases, for people "arriving" on scene, They might want or need to call it in as they will then be insured.

A key example of this was an incident in Derbyshire, where a group of people came down from a cave looking for a ladder to help their friend get up a pitch. On discussion this was called in but people present, half rescue half not, were able to use brand new gear to act swiftly, and haul the person up.

Clearly different situations are vastly different. If you're at the bottom of the cave and there's something you can do, you just get on with it!
But entering a cave with the intent of rescuing someone is vastly different as you're putting yourself in a position of Authority and responsibility.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
pwhole said:
The Billy Wilder movie Ace in the Hole, starring Kirk Douglas, stunningly covers the concept of self-promotion and generated media-interest via cave rescue (or not), and is an absolute masterpiece - full of karmic significance for all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_in_the_Hole_(1951_film)
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Yes, based on the attempted rescue of Floyd Collins.

For a taste of CRO's activities in the Dales in the 90's, the following videos on YouTube from "Cutting Edge: Cave Rescue" are worth watching (especially the scenes in Bernies in Ingleton pre-Steve Round's era!):

Part 1:

https://youtu.be/BwkTsGo2Lx4

Part 2:

https://youtu.be/pZjToiujnW0
 
A_Northerner

A_Northerner

Active member
I love those cave rescue videos - especially the one where you get to see Tony Seddon of Starless River getting escorted out of Quaking!

Brilliant quote from the rescue team: "This is fucking typical, it's gonna cost him at least a bloody barrel!".
 
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