Restoration of Perennial Flow in the River Lathkill upstream of Bubble Springs
- Thread starter Mark
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Peter Burgess
New member
There is an Unclej listed on the North West Carp Forum
http://www.northwestcarp.co.uk/forums/members/unclej.html - and click the About Me tab.
There is also a gentleman called "Jan" mentioned here:
http://www.haddonestate.co.uk/rivers/warren.php
Without a heads-up from unclej himself, this might not be conclusive proof of identity, but it is fairly convincing! :-\
http://www.northwestcarp.co.uk/forums/members/unclej.html - and click the About Me tab.
There is also a gentleman called "Jan" mentioned here:
http://www.haddonestate.co.uk/rivers/warren.php
Without a heads-up from unclej himself, this might not be conclusive proof of identity, but it is fairly convincing! :-\
graham
New member
It is clear that a 3d model of the area would be extremely useful in allowing folks who might not be completely 'at home' with the nature of our underworld to visualise what is going on here.
Producing the surface layer and overlaying with an OS map is a relatively trivial matter. In the absence of an online Derbyshire cave registry, does anyone have a list of the relevant caves & their entrance locations &, having got that, does anyone have access to relevant raw survey data? That's what is needed to produce a model, the rest is straightforward grunt work & sorting.
Producing the surface layer and overlaying with an OS map is a relatively trivial matter. In the absence of an online Derbyshire cave registry, does anyone have a list of the relevant caves & their entrance locations &, having got that, does anyone have access to relevant raw survey data? That's what is needed to produce a model, the rest is straightforward grunt work & sorting.
unclej
New member
Tripod said:
Back from shopping.
There are some very high weirs between Bubble Springs and Conksbury bridge. Are you saying that opening the sluices in these allows Trout to migrate through this section?
Yes. Some of the pools may be passable without the hatches open but only just and only by the very fittest fish.
Is this done and has it been done every year, since the weirs were built?
Yes. There was a time when a couple of the hatches were seized but they all run fairly well now.
Are those deep pools drained completely to produce a natural river flow?
Yes. They are let completely down. Psalm Pool was down for about six weeks and has only just been closed.
Have any studies been carried out to assess how far Trout migrate along the Lathkill?
I don?t know I am afraid.
Or even Derwent/Wye/Lathkill?
Fish cannot pass the weir at Alport.
My, educated, guess is that those weirs are a significant if not total barrier to fish migration.
You would be right, apart from the fact that the sluices are opened and fish in the upper dam do not have to pass a weir of course.
Could you state how dependent the Lathkill fishery has been, since the 1850s, on stocking and what proportion of the fish stocks are produced by natural spawning?
This is an easy one.
A newspaper report from 28th March 1894 states; ?A large number of fish have made their way upstream again so the river is again fairly stocked?. The river has never been stocked in living memory according to Herbert Waldwin. I don?t think the Lathkill has ever been stocked and relies completely on its native trout.
I am curious too about the "traditional spawning beds" above and below Bateman's House, where the river is entirely man-made.
The ?Spawning Beds? are below Batemans. Cattle were driven through the river to break up the gravel here, which has a tendency to bind with tufa. All the Lathkill is man-made, until you get to Hawleys Bridge at Harthill. I'm not sure of the point you are making here.
This is not a personal attack but a genuine interest in how high the Trout ascended the river and what conditions they found, bearing in mind that nothing below a point well above Carters Mill is natural.
There are trout in Carter Mill Dam of course, which you must have seen.
If the river was to run on the surface from Lathkill Head Cave down to Bubble Springs - and I cannot believe that it ever did "perennially" in historical times, then significant cave systems would be permanently flooded. That 3D mapping would be very useful together with a review of known hydrology.
This will be caught in the EIA that is going to take place. The evidence presented by Professor Gunn suggests Lathkill Head Cave was the source of the river at all times before the 1880's
And back to basics:
To restore 1960s Magpie Sough water levels would mean that the sough would have to be blocked producing a 30'-40' head where it meets the Wye.
Please ask Professor Gunn about this.
To restore 1880s levels the sough would have to be blocked completely at a point which would ensure that all water captured by it was trapped.
Yes.
The ideas of "control" and "access" do not fit in with these scenarios.
The design has a provision for letting off the water and controlling the flow. It will be possible to let off the head and access the sough. I?m not sure why, but that was the specification.
All the consequences of blocking the sough can be estimated but some, I imagine, only guessed at.
That is one reason why it is reversible, but the plan is only to return water to the original catchments.
As I have said and others above, the sough being open is one factor and obviously others play a part. In fact, the only consistent factor is the sough being open and the changes that are occurring must be due to other influences
Beck cites conduits opening up over time and allowing more water through to the sough. Have you read Beck, Banks and Gunn on the subject?
unclej
New member
The UK has a legal obligation to restore its areas of reserve and the Lathkill Dale part of the NNR is failing. The Lathkill is failing other legal obligations too due to the disconnect with its aquifer. The agencies are extremely keen to restore flow to Lathkill Dale and the SSSI to Alport. The public are excited at the prospect of year round flow and native species returning to Lathkill Dale before it was destroyed by mining and are completely on board. Fisheries interests in the area raise near to ?1m/yr and have a significant say as major stakeholders. I'm not sure about the points being made about fish passage?
bograt
Active member
unclej said:bograt said:
It sounds like the Magpie Sough drain down of the Lathkill catchment has provided some temporary access privilages but I'm not sure about your claim that Mandale might be affected...
Hmm, around 40 years of access, Temporary??, I doubt you are a caver, a source to Lathkill head has been proven to Crimbo, has a link from Crimbo to Magpie been proven?
Re; Mandale, there are flooded shafts in there that depend upon the water level, any raising would have a detrimental effect, my earlier question about the amount of rise in the water table remains unanswered!!.
droid
Active member
Peter Burgess said:
He is also on the Facebook page.
I think you may have identified the mystery man, Peter, and explained his 'interest' in spending a LOT of taxpayers money in order to enhance the Lathkill Fishery.
Pity the man himself didn't have the courage to do the same.
Peter Burgess
New member
OK I'm wrong. Speculation is born from lack of information. I'm happy for people to know who I am, and when it comes to a discussion on scientific matters, and especially when a new person pops up to provide lots of useful information, it seems strange that we are not allowed know who you are. When a matter as fundamentally interesting as this comes along, I think it is very useful to know who we are engaging with. A full and open debate, of which I won't be taking part as I am but a mere bystander, bears more good fruit when we can all "see each other", so to speak. The majority of the main participants in this topic are open about who they are even if they have nicknames. I guess the discussion continues with this hint of regrettable suspicion.
I am sorry unclej for misidentifying you, but myself and my club were the subject of some pretty horrible stuff some years ago from an online persona whose identity we did work out, so I am naturally suspicious of anyone, especially an obvious non-caver, who comes along with a load of stuff out of the blue.
Let me reassure you, however, compared to said previous person, you are polite, willing to engage intelligently and very interesting in what you post.
I am sorry unclej for misidentifying you, but myself and my club were the subject of some pretty horrible stuff some years ago from an online persona whose identity we did work out, so I am naturally suspicious of anyone, especially an obvious non-caver, who comes along with a load of stuff out of the blue.
Let me reassure you, however, compared to said previous person, you are polite, willing to engage intelligently and very interesting in what you post.
droid
Active member
I can be very polite, and to engage 'intelligently' it is sometimes neccessary to know what particular axe a person has to grind.
That is what I, and at least one other in this exercise in evasion and semantics would like to know. I regard failure to disclose this 'interest' as dishonest. And if that's rude, so be it.
And very sorry if I didn't put this in the excruciatingly fair and polite way that Peter did....
That is what I, and at least one other in this exercise in evasion and semantics would like to know. I regard failure to disclose this 'interest' as dishonest. And if that's rude, so be it.
And very sorry if I didn't put this in the excruciatingly fair and polite way that Peter did....