Restoration of Perennial Flow in the River Lathkill upstream of Bubble Springs

[unclej]

And there are almost certainly bat roosts in several of the caves such as Lathkill Head Cave, Lower Calesdale Cave, Critchlow Cave and possibly Mandale Mine.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

Im about 3 miles from LHC now. I've had to empty the rain gauge twice today and the river is rising fast. Do you think the bats are roosting in caves that are seasonally flooded? Remember that during wet times conditions revert to a state of affairs comparable to a control to the under-draining of the Lathkill catchment being placed in Magpie Sough.

 

[unclej]

I do believe that unclej should reveal if not his identity then the reasons for his interest in the scheme we are discussing and his role in promoting it. It would appear that he has been identified on aditnow and on this forum and if wrongly it is hardly fair on the person his views have been attributed to or himself. 

I just don't believe what I am reading. You want me to give you my name so you don't continue to stumble around and offend innocent people?

 

[unclej]

No more from me.  :thumbsdown:

 

[martinm]

You need to hear what Professor Gunn has to say and to learn more about the project at the meeting. I hope you can attend. I've read his report but will not talk for him on the subject of hydrology. You seem to have equal respect for him and I ask you to try to understand this point please Mel.

I already have have a copy of said report unclej, it is very extensive, I have read it. It says nothing about what we have been discussing on here, ie:- how you are going to even block Magpie Sough. I already know who you are, and who you represent, but I won't name you.

There is no point in pursuing the blockage of the Sough if you have not carried out a risk assessment and worked out what resources (human and otherwise) you need to carry it out!

 

[martinm]

And there are almost certainly bat roosts in several of the caves such as Lathkill Head Cave, Lower Calesdale Cave, Critchlow Cave and possibly Mandale Mine.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

Im about 3 miles from LHC now. I've had to empty the rain gauge twice today and the river is rising fast. Do you think the bats are roosting in caves that are seasonally flooded? Remember that during wet times conditions revert to a state of affairs comparable to a control to the under-draining of the Lathkill catchment being placed in Magpie Sough.

Unclej, Ricklow Cave does not normally flood to the roof, Mandale Mine doesn't either, Lathkill Head is a big passage and might not either and there's a big chamber at the end of the main entrance passage which would probably be suitable for bats. As does Lower Calesdale. (The Doghouse.) Critchlow obv. does occasionally. What about Bateman's Shaft? I will ask the appropriate people for advice. If certain answers come back I will take the appropriate actions to try and make sure the protected species aren't affected by any proposed action. (And provide written evidence of their recommendations.)

Anyway, like I said previously, Lathkill Dale is a SSSI (with many of the SSSI units in favourable condition or recovering, yes I am looking at them now on the Magic web site) and many of it's natural underground features are protected by law, so I will be taking advice from the appropriate senior people in their respective organisations and reporting back...

You would (as suggested by others) do yourself a favour by saying who you are openly so we can discuss things more  openly. Like I said above, I know who you are and who you work for and hiding behind a nickname doesn't help matters!

Oh. and the 'roadshows' won't help either, there are some wise people on here!

I would love to see the fish rescues be unnecessary, but there are other options as I have already stated. A large initial outlay might save money in the long run.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

(PS: I have been elected Conservation Officer for a reason!)

 

[droid]

That avatar of the Mystery Man....

Looks suspiciously like one of the vughs in Magpie Sough...Ref, Jim Rieuwerts, Lead Mining in Derbyshire, Vol2

 

[graham]

There was, the Lathkill began to dry up.

According to the video upthread, the situation, fom a fisheries POV is worse now than it was in the 1920s. That means that change has been taking place which is clearly unrelated to the digging of magpie Sough sixty-odd years before then.

 

[graham]

Do you think the bats are roosting in caves that are seasonally flooded?

Oh yes. I have seen numerous instances of that.

 

[graham]

You need to hear what Professor Gunn has to say and to learn more about the project at the meeting. I hope you can attend. I've read his report but will not talk for him on the subject of hydrology. You seem to have equal respect for him and I ask you to try to understand this point please Mel.

Dr Gunn will have been hired to give an opinion.  What he says will be dependent on what he was asked. How can we do this? Is not same question as What will happen if we do this? Indeed, neither of them are the same question as Can you give me pointers as to how to persuade others that this scheme should be done? Dr Gunn has, it seems, been hired by the protagonists, not by the 'concerned observers' such as Natural England. His advice will, inevitably, have that slant. That's life.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Anyone who presents a case in favour of blocking the sough to restore water to the Lathkill in a factual and well-reasoned way should not really feel the need to drop out of the discussion. Anyone who is timid about identifying themselves, when they are clearly an important player in the matter, should really not have this problem, unless, of course, there is something they are wary of people discovering, apart from their name. Its not as if we are holding a trial in court where anonymous witnesses are presenting evidence!

 

[Bottlebank]

The video, (I assume it was John Gunn?) described the current flow as 20 l/s in low water, 6 to 7000 in high water.

It went on to suggest blocking the sough would produce an extra 2-300 l/s in low water but only an extra 6-700 in high water.

I'm no expert but my experience of underground streams suggests there must be more to this. It sounds perfectly reasonable that the low to high water ratio in Lathkill at present is around 300:1 as he describes, but I'm struggling with why high water ratio from the sough would be so low - i.e. 3:1?

Or put another way how can a stream that is ten times more powerful in low water conditions be relatively unaffected by high water conditions?

I'm not sure how good these trout are at swimming but I suspect if the logic were wrong and they were suddenly hit with 60 to 70,000 l/s they may all end up in the North Sea?

Any ideas anyone?

 

[Speleokitty]

One factor that seems to have been overlooked is water abstraction. Many of the larger farms in the Lathkill catchment area have put down boreholes over the last 30 years and this must have an influence especially in low water conditions. Only a small part of the catchment is drained by Magpie Sough and we know that water levels in many of the adjacent mines were not lowered when the sough was completed. I suspect that much of the water that enters Magpie sough is deep phreatic flow that never went to the Lathkill anyway.

If "unclej" who I understand is the person responsible for the fishery is so concerned about the river and its wildlife then maybe he should be thinking about the large amounts of paper pulp waste that are being spread on fields within its catchment. We know it can travel underground for considerable distances.

 

[droid]

Peter, the problem is identifying the axe he's grinding.

Like me, I suspect most on here will have never heard of him. Except me. If I'm correct, I went to school with him, or a sibling....

 

[Peter Burgess]

If I presented a case for something at a regional caving council meeting, but was only prepared to do it anonymously, then I think the council would be fully justified to dismiss it out of hand, if I was not prepared to put my name behind the idea. Yes I know this is an online forum and not a regional council, but the basic premise is the same - the best way to be listened to is to be up front about who you are and what you represent.

 

[droid]

Which is why I was rather enthusiastically attempting to get unclej to divulge at least part of that information.

His reticence in this matter does him no favours, as on Aditnow.

 

[braveduck]

Do you think there may be another hidden agenda here,such as Power Generation from the head of water produced by damming up the level.With active controls  that could be a way of stopping the water table getting out of hand!

 

[Mark]

There will be a 'roadshow' at Aldern House, Bakewell (PDNP) on Thursday 23rd January 2014 to discuss proposals for restoring perennial flow in the Lathkill. Doors will open 18:45 for a 19:00 start and the meeting is expected to last for about 2.5 hours.

There will be talks by Warren Slaney (Haddon Estate); Jenny Phillips (EA); Kevin Bull (NE), Rhodri Thomas (PDNP) & John Gunn with plenty of time for discussion.

The intention is that this should be an open meeting so any caver / mine explorer with an interest in the area is welcome to attend.

However, pre-registration is necessary as if there is a significant demand the event will be switched to a larger venue. Please could anyone planning to attend send an email to John Gunn ( j.gunn.1    @    bham.ac.uk ).

I would like to remind everyone the original point of this topic, was to publicise an open discussion where everyone can have their say.

Appropriate senior people, from various organisations will be present and will try and answer any queries.

Please email as requested above

 

[graham]

There will be a 'roadshow' at Aldern House, Bakewell (PDNP) on Thursday 23rd January 2014 to discuss proposals for restoring perennial flow in the Lathkill. Doors will open 18:45 for a 19:00 start and the meeting is expected to last for about 2.5 hours.

There will be talks by Warren Slaney (Haddon Estate); Jenny Phillips (EA); Kevin Bull (NE), Rhodri Thomas (PDNP) & John Gunn with plenty of time for discussion.

The intention is that this should be an open meeting so any caver / mine explorer with an interest in the area is welcome to attend.

However, pre-registration is necessary as if there is a significant demand the event will be switched to a larger venue. Please could anyone planning to attend send an email to John Gunn ( j.gunn.1    @    bham.ac.uk ).

I would like to remind everyone the original point of this topic, was to publicise an open discussion where everyone can have their say.

Appropriate senior people, from various organisations will be present and will try and answer any queries.

Please email as requested above

As I have already said, although I have an interest, I cannot be at this meeting. Given that there seemed to be someone responding here who knew the background, it seemed not unreasonable to ask questions here.

So far I have heard a number of points about the motive behind this, which seems to be mainly, if not wholly, about fishing. I have also heard quite a bit about the background, which makes me think that not only does not seem to be a good idea; it is a rather drastic concept which not only may not have the desired effect but may also have a number of other effects most of which may well be undesirable.

I remain willing to assist in producing a 3d layout of the underground in relation to the surface, but, as yet, it seems that little or none of the relevant data is available.

 

[mulucaver]

I remain willing to assist in producing a 3d layout of the underground in relation to the surface, but, as yet, it seems that little or none of the relevant data is available.

I've already made a start on the Peak District Cave Registry.

In the meantime you can download the data here. http://www.daveclucas.com/cms/index.php/downloads/category/12-cave-survey-data#

 

[graham]

I remain willing to assist in producing a 3d layout of the underground in relation to the surface, but, as yet, it seems that little or none of the relevant data is available.

I've already made a start on the Peak District Cave Registry.

In the meantime you can download the data here. http://www.daveclucas.com/cms/index.php/downloads/category/12-cave-survey-data#

Ta, that'll help make a start.