Restoration of Perennial Flow in the River Lathkill upstream of Bubble Springs

[graham]

What a shame this has decended into childish taunts.

Personally, I would not say that it has. This discussion has been interesting and informative. It has informed me, for example, that you have a vested interest in adding to the fishing interests in this area. It has not informed me that Lathkill had a perennial flow before Magpie Sough was dug; nor has it informed me that attempting to divert the current flow from the sough to the Wye towards Lathkill, instead,  would be easy or without other unwanted consequences.

It is a shame that relevant survey data does not seem to be available to construct a useful model, as I am sure that you, for one, have a fairly poor understanding of the three dimensional layout of the drainage in this area, of where the water currently goes and what the consequences may be of attempting to change that situation. Magpie Sough is at an AOD of about 160 m. Lathkill Head Cave at 210 m. 50 m of head is quite a considerable pressure & this water will, almost certainly, find its way to all sorts of unintended places.

 

[Mark]

Dave Drury.

No bloody wiser, are you Mr Noble?

Never heard of you

 

[droid]

Didn't think you had.

Is it relevent?

I was asking 'unclej's' interest in the Lathkill rather than his name.

 

[Peter Burgess]

There is a link to this lovely old map on that Facebook page......

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56212994@N06/

 

[Tripod]

Thank you unclej for answering my questions in detail.
I still struggle to understand how this scheme could work, on an artificial river that has a void under it (Lathkill Dale Sough), other unknown voids (mine workings) and a number of natural sinks and resurgences. The river bed needs to be maintained and at times I have seen water disappearing through it. The gradient is steep, not only from Bubble Springs to Lathkill Head Cave but just take a look at how far below the man-made river Mandale Sough tail is and how long a leat it has parallel to the river in order to meet the river at the same level. .
I do not wish to get into conflict here but I am sure that the Lathkill has been stocked.
There are too many questions regarding known and possibly unknown drainage in the Lathkill catchment. 
Re. Control of the flow in the sough and access has anyone really considered the volume of water that would be backed up behind a blockage of any sort and the pressure involved. It is worth reading the account of the miners breaking through to the mine from the sough. "Conduits opening allowing more water in to the sough" sounds like fact, or speculation and raises even more questions about what would happen if sough was blocked.
Back to practicalities:
Is this a scheme perhaps inspired by the Hillcarr Sough collapse and continuing the policy in place on the Wye to return the river to its natural state, without man made obstructions, a rive which will re-stock itself through natural spawning?
Another educated guess - is outside funding available, by way of grants to pay for the work and maybe even to go towards on-going maintenance?
 

 

[unclej]

1528. The Monastic Grange at Meadow Place. Notice the number of mills in that short section, each making the most of the river. It wouldn't run a hamster wheel for half the year now.

I've done a much lighter copy and am having it translated from the Tudor English.  The project is throwing up some very interesting and illuminating history. It will all be in the book...

 

[graham]

1528. The Monastic Grange at Meadow Place. Notice the number of mills in that short section, each making the most of the river. It wouldn't run a hamster wheel for half the year now.

An interesting point. Given that, prior to the utilisation of steam, water was one of the most ubiquitous power sources that was available, that and wind, it would not be surprising that mills might be built and utilised even where flows were intermittent. After all they were not used every day of the year. Where I am sitting, now, there is a river, the Coly, a couple of hundred metres away down the slope and across the road. It rises from a karst spring (the Doux de Coly)  and flows north to join the Vezere about 3-4 km north of here. In its total length of 8 km there are numerous old mills, including, for certain, some that are at the downstream end where I know for certain that the flow goes underground in summer 'cos I have walked dry shod up the bed of the river.

 

[unclej]

Thank you unclej for answering my questions in detail.
I still struggle to understand how this scheme could work, on an artificial river that has a void under it (Lathkill Dale Sough), other unknown voids (mine workings) and a number of natural sinks and resurgences. The river bed needs to be maintained and at times I have seen water disappearing through it. The gradient is steep, not only from Bubble Springs to Lathkill Head Cave but just take a look at how far below the man-made river Mandale Sough tail is and how long a leat it has parallel to the river in order to meet the river at the same level. .
I do not wish to get into conflict here but I am sure that the Lathkill has been stocked.
There are too many questions regarding known and possibly unknown drainage in the Lathkill catchment. 
Re. Control of the flow in the sough and access has anyone really considered the volume of water that would be backed up behind a blockage of any sort and the pressure involved. It is worth reading the account of the miners breaking through to the mine from the sough. "Conduits opening allowing more water in to the sough" sounds like fact, or speculation and raises even more questions about what would happen if sough was blocked.
Back to practicalities:
Is this a scheme perhaps inspired by the Hillcarr Sough collapse and continuing the policy in place on the Wye to return the river to its natural state, without man made obstructions, a rive which will re-stock itself through natural spawning?
Another educated guess - is outside funding available, by way of grants to pay for the work and maybe even to go towards on-going maintenance?

Hi Tripod.

Professor Gunn is able to give answers to most of your questions. I might ask him if I can video his presentation and ask it to be put up on the Friends of the Dale website for you and others to see.  I think the HCS collapse in Oct 2000 has given extra confidence to the fact that backed-up water will find its way to recharge water tables and so rivers. Grants are being sought to pay for the project, and as you say, maintenance.  There will be some considerable private funding too.

The pressure on the control will be 0.3 MPa. The actual amount of backed up water is known, being enough to fill the sough from the control to the mine, the mine and main shaft to the tipping point, and Townhead and Fieldgrove Veins.  Of course safety factors have been employed in the design. 

I've read the accounts of a long drill finishing the job off in 1881 and Mr Bacon and the Chatsworth Agent being squirted out in 1950.

 

[unclej]

1528. The Monastic Grange at Meadow Place. Notice the number of mills in that short section, each making the most of the river. It wouldn't run a hamster wheel for half the year now.

An interesting point. Given that, prior to the utilisation of steam, water was one of the most ubiquitous power sources that was available, that and wind, it would not be surprising that mills might be built and utilised even where flows were intermittent. After all they were not used every day of the year. Where I am sitting, now, there is a river, the Coly, a couple of hundred metres away down the slope and across the road. It rises from a karst spring (the Doux de Coly)  and flows north to join the Vezere about 3-4 km north of here. In its total length of 8 km there are numerous old mills, including, for certain, some that are at the downstream end where I know for certain that the flow goes underground in summer 'cos I have walked dry shod up the bed of the river.

All of the mills on the depleted reach of the Lathkill closed very soon after Magpie Sough underdrained the Lathkill catchment.  Victorian Derbyshire millers must have been more keen to make brass throughout the year than their French counterparts, although I take your point about Medieval millers which was a fair one.

 

[droid]

So we still do not have verifiable proof of perennial flow?

My cynicism as to the real reasons for this move are that it seems to be more for fishery interests: the wildlife proliferation argument seems a publically popular addendum to that.

Arguing for a return to some postulated, possibly mythical time seems pointless. Lathkill Dale is a fascinating place as it is. To someone interested in lead mining even more so.

Now unlike others, I do not claim any particular expertise in the hydrology of the area, certainly not enough to want to disturb the status quo, but one thing I do know: underground drainage patterns rarely fit surface ones. As Graham has intimated, there may well be unforseen and unwanted consequences of meddling.

Victorian mills generally went over to steam power as soon as they could.

Dave Drury. Mine enthusiast non-entity, not a published author now or in the future, and semi-professional pisstaker.

 

[graham]

1528. The Monastic Grange at Meadow Place. Notice the number of mills in that short section, each making the most of the river. It wouldn't run a hamster wheel for half the year now.

An interesting point. Given that, prior to the utilisation of steam, water was one of the most ubiquitous power sources that was available, that and wind, it would not be surprising that mills might be built and utilised even where flows were intermittent. After all they were not used every day of the year. Where I am sitting, now, there is a river, the Coly, a couple of hundred metres away down the slope and across the road. It rises from a karst spring (the Doux de Coly)  and flows north to join the Vezere about 3-4 km north of here. In its total length of 8 km there are numerous old mills, including, for certain, some that are at the downstream end where I know for certain that the flow goes underground in summer 'cos I have walked dry shod up the bed of the river.

All of the mills on the depleted reach of the Lathkill closed very soon after Magpie Sough underdrained the Lathkill catchment.  Victorian Derbyshire millers must have been more keen to make brass throughout the year than their French counterparts, although I take your point about Medieval millers which was a fair one.

So, all of the water mills closed in the mid-19th century just when the use of steam was taking off in a big way. OK.

 

[graham]

Of course safety factors have been employed in the design.

I do believe the same thing was said about Fukushima.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Graham - I would suggest that when flows were intermittent, it might mean MORE mills were built so as to make sure there was capacity to mill as much grain as possible when the water was flowing. There you go, I said I wouldn't get involved, and I have.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The point about the timing of mill closure is very pertinent. Few small-scale watermills survived the industrialisation of milling in large steam-powered town-based mills in the latter half of the 19th century. When did the railway come to this area?* This would allow the cheap import of town-milled flour from the nearest industrial area, this putting countless small agricultural watermills out of business.

* Bakewell station opened in 1862 - answered my own question.

 

[martinm]

What a shame this has decended into childish taunts.

Personally, I would not say that it has. This discussion has been interesting and informative. It has informed me, for example, that you have a vested interest in adding to the fishing interests in this area. It has not informed me that Lathkill had a perennial flow before Magpie Sough was dug; nor has it informed me that attempting to divert the current flow from the sough to the Wye towards Lathkill, instead,  would be easy or without other unwanted consequences.

It is a shame that relevant survey data does not seem to be available to construct a useful model, as I am sure that you, for one, have a fairly poor understanding of the three dimensional layout of the drainage in this area, of where the water currently goes and what the consequences may be of attempting to change that situation. Magpie Sough is at an AOD of about 160 m. Lathkill Head Cave at 210 m. 50 m of head is quite a considerable pressure & this water will, almost certainly, find its way to all sorts of unintended places.

This thread has indeed been very useful and informative. Several of us already know who unclej is and many valid and good points/concerns have been raised by various people. If you look upthread you will read about them. You will also see from recent posts about the collapse of the Magpie Sough in the past and about it bursting out of the hillside in the Wye valley in various places due to the water pressure before the pressure build up caused the collapse to be blown out of it's own accord!

As Graham says above, 50m of head of water would produce "a considerable pressure & this water will, almost certainly, find its way to all sorts of unintended places." Absolutely correct.

The Manifold only drops 50m or so between Wetton Mill and Ilam around 4 miles away and that blew numerous concrete plugs off due to the water pressure during floods!

Magpie Sough is over a mile long so where do you propose to block it unclej? You can't just block it where it exits the hillside, because it will just find other ways out. You will have to block it a mile into the hillside and how are you going to convey suitable materials, tools, etc. to block it that far underground? A logistical nightmare.

And then there is the loss of access to a vast amount of natural cave passage when water levels rise which NE are monitoring via Peak District cavers. And there are almost certainly bat roosts in several of the caves such as Lathkill Head Cave, Lower Calesdale Cave, Critchlow Cave and possibly Mandale Mine.

So I will be getting in touch with my contacts at NE and the EA to get their input on the matter, rest assured... Also the Derbys Bat Group...

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

(PS: Nothing personal about John Gunn btw, as he has always been very helpful in water tracing matters, etc.)

 

[unclej]

As Graham has intimated, there may well be unforseen and unwanted consequences of meddling.

There was, the Lathkill began to dry up.

Has anyone here seen the 1929 Nuttall letter by the way?

 

[droid]

Did it?

You have not convincingly proved that.

be aaware of the scientst's dictum: 'the plural of anecdote is NOT data'.

 

[unclej]

What a shame this has decended into childish taunts.

Personally, I would not say that it has. This discussion has been interesting and informative. It has informed me, for example, that you have a vested interest in adding to the fishing interests in this area. It has not informed me that Lathkill had a perennial flow before Magpie Sough was dug; nor has it informed me that attempting to divert the current flow from the sough to the Wye towards Lathkill, instead,  would be easy or without other unwanted consequences.

It is a shame that relevant survey data does not seem to be available to construct a useful model, as I am sure that you, for one, have a fairly poor understanding of the three dimensional layout of the drainage in this area, of where the water currently goes and what the consequences may be of attempting to change that situation. Magpie Sough is at an AOD of about 160 m. Lathkill Head Cave at 210 m. 50 m of head is quite a considerable pressure & this water will, almost certainly, find its way to all sorts of unintended places.

This thread has indeed been very useful and informative. Several of us already know who unclej is and many valid and good points/concerns have been raised by various people. If you look upthread you will read about them. You will also see from recent posts about the collapse of the Magpie Sough in the past and about it bursting out of the hillside in the Wye valley in various places due to the water pressure before the pressure build up caused the collapse to be blown out of it's own accord!

As Graham says above, 50m of head of water would produce "a considerable pressure & this water will, almost certainly, find its way to all sorts of unintended places." Absolutely correct.

The Manifold only drops 50m or so between Wetton Mill and Ilam around 4 miles away and that blew numerous concrete plugs off due to the water pressure during floods!

Magpie Sough is over a mile long so where do you propose to block it unclej? You can't just block it where it exits the hillside, because it will just find other ways out. You will have to block it a mile into the hillside and how are you going to convey suitable materials, tools, etc. to block it that far underground? A logistical nightmare.

And then there is the loss of access to a vast amount of natural cave passage when water levels rise which NE are monitoring via Peak District cavers. And there are almost certainly bat roosts in several of the caves such as Lathkill Head Cave, Lower Calesdale Cave, Critchlow Cave and possibly Mandale Mine.

So I will be getting in touch with my contacts at NE and the EA to get their input on the matter, rest assured... Also the Derbys Bat Group...

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

(PS: Nothing personal about John Gunn btw, as he has always been very helpful in water tracing matters, etc.)

You need to hear what Professor Gunn has to say and to learn more about the project at the meeting. I hope you can attend. I've read his report but will not talk for him on the subject of hydrology. You seem to have equal respect for him and I ask you to try to understand this point please Mel. 

 

[unclej]

Did it?

You have not convincingly proved that.

be aaware of the scientst's dictum: 'the plural of anecdote is NOT data'.

I haven't tried. I am a surveyor and a lawyer but not an expert in karst geology and hydrology. I know enough about my fields not to talk for experts in others. Go along to the meeting and hear the evidence.

 

[Tripod]

I have just re-read this issue being discussed on aditnow two years ago. A lot of the same ground covered but enough additional information to make it worthwhile.
For me the information being given in support of the scheme is too selective to say the least. 
On mills, I drive past one regularly in the Peak District, the feeder stream for which is barely visible. Mills did not work for twenty four hours/day and our ancestors had ways of storing water.
I do believe that unclej should reveal if not his identity then the reasons for his interest in the scheme we are discussing and his role in promoting it. It would appear that he has been identified on aditnow and on this forum and if wrongly it is hardly fair on the person his views have been attributed to or himself.