S
surreyminer
Guest
SamT said:
OK I'll ask; why is there only one P bolt on the first rebelay or am I missing something?
Rhino Rift rigging ?
- Thread starter Geoff R
- Start date
OK I'll ask; why is there only one P bolt on the first rebelay or am I missing something?
E
emgee
Guest
Peter Burgess said:
I'd assumed it was a reference to tyres.
Les W
Active member
surreyminer said:
Without going down Rhino to check I will make the assumption that the first rebelay is at least 5m below the Y hang.
Good rigging techniques (developed using unreliable spits) dictate that if you rebelay less than 5m below the hang then you should not rely on only one bolt at the rebelay. This is, I believe, because you don't have enough rope to absorb the impact if the single rebelay bolt fails. This will shock load the bolts on the hang above and may bring about subsequent failures.
Greater than 5m, the ratio of rope to slack(distance of drop) in a rebelay bolt failure, results in forces low enough not to cause the other bolts to fail.
Now we all know that "P" bolts are absolutely bomb proof
but, all of the guidance on resin anchors states that normal rigging practices should be followed, so we have to rig as if we were using spits.Any rebelay is only normally with one bolt, except if the distance is less than the above mentioned 5m. So in answer to your question there is only one bolt because it is a rebelay.
Hope this is clear
My understanding also, (but I would not want to be on the rope if one failed thanks).
P1 has a rebelay shown as minus 15m, but seemed like minus 10 - 12 and is a single,
P2 with its rebelay at minus 3 is a Y,
and all very nicely placed thank you.
The right hand wall looks interesting, but just a little rusty and old ….. pity these are not resin.
Out of interest only, has anyone done P1 right hand route recently ??
P1 has a rebelay shown as minus 15m, but seemed like minus 10 - 12 and is a single,
P2 with its rebelay at minus 3 is a Y,
and all very nicely placed thank you.
The right hand wall looks interesting, but just a little rusty and old ….. pity these are not resin.
Out of interest only, has anyone done P1 right hand route recently ??
S
surreyminer
Guest
Les W said:
Les W
Active member
High Atlas is relatively easy as an SRT trip compared to Rhino, but the main hang is a loooonnnnggggg way down and up. Also the hang is from some large jammed boulders with names such as "open sandwich"
Rhino right hand route is in my opinion one of the most difficult and challenging SRT routes in Britain :shock: and one of the finest.
Rhino right hand route is in my opinion one of the most difficult and challenging SRT routes in Britain :shock: and one of the finest.
Les W
Active member
Geoff R said:
Right Hand Route is a superb SRT trip where you don't touch the floor of the passage from the top of the first pitch to the bottom of the third pitch.
A concious decision was made not to resin the right hand route.
There were several reasons
1. It didn't need doing
2. It was felt that turning it into a "Join the Dots" route would detract from the challenge / seriousness of the route. :shock:
3. It was felt by many people (Myself included) that it is useful to have an SRT route which is on spits as a "rigging training facility" the thinking for this is as follows:-
Rigging is a vanishing skill - anone can rig off of pre placed bolts but if people were to find a new cave or visit an unknown / no rigging topo cave most people would be unable to rig safely.
A good rigger knows where the bolts should be. Next time you are on an SRT trip watch the rigger, if he is any good he won't follow the bolts down the cave, he will rig the pitch head and abseil down to a point in the shaft where it is obvious to him that a rebelay or deviation is needed and then he will look for the bolt. It is even more obvious in a cave which is not "P" bolted.
This is a vanishing skill and in these days of join the dots rigging there are very few "new" people aquiring these skills. As more caves are "P" bolted less oportunities are available for people to hone their rigging skills.
Expedition caving needs people who can not only rigg on spits but know where to place the spits in the first place. Even "P" bolting needs these rigging skills - it is imperative that the people who are placing the "P" bolts get them in the correct position, being able to rig corectly is a pre requesite for this.
whitelackington
New member
how is the resin bolting of Thrupe Lane Swallet progresing?
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Right Hand Route
A fascinating technical route providing a new perspective on this superb cave.
First Pitch
Begin with the natural thread and locate two rawlbolts set into the roof above the stal slope. Rig from these and abseil 5 metres down to large ledge on right of shaft. Locate traverse bolt and rig bolt traverse towards obvious rift. Above third bolt is backup for 12 metre abseil down calcite ramp to lip of pitch. Long arms are needed to reach over the void and screw in a hanger for a deviation. Rig this as long as possible (for easy passing) and continue down shaft for about 10 metres. Watch out for the start of the rift forming the second pitch and a spike of rock to the right. Pendulum to the spike and deviate from it. Two metres lower is rebelay. Second rebelay follows and takes the caver into a traverse above the second pitch.
Second Pitch
The traverse is followed to a narrowing and hang bolts in opposite walls. An initially cramped pitch head opens out to leave the caver dangling over a huge, breathtaking void. A few metres down a deviation pulls the rope further out into space and a descent of 15 metres follows. 5 metres above the floor a difficult tension traverse is made by clawing along the wall and a small ledge is reached, perched high above the Third Pitch.
Third Pitch
Two traverse bolts lead to a Y hang and 10 metre pitch in a stal lined rift. A ledge follows where the rope is anchored high on the right. A bolt opposite the lip of the pitch is best used for a short deviation. A second deviation follows at -7 metres giving another splendid descent to the bottom of Third Pitch.
From 'A Mendip Caver's Ropework Guide'
The topo for the standard route is more or less right except that the rebelay on the first pitch (which can also be used for a deviation if you prefer) is a few metres higher than indicated, and the rebelay on the second now has two bolts.
As the original creator of the Right Hand Route perhaps I can express my opinion on re-bolting. I agree with a lot of what Les says but ultimately the bolts are going to need replacing and, when that time comes, I don't think there are any good arguments for installing more spits - in the interests of the cave it will need to be P bolted eventually.
Les W
Active member
Whilst I proposed some defence for not resin bolting Rhino Right Hand route I will add that I agree wholeheartedly with Andy concerning the eventual replacements of the spits once they are worn out.Andy Sparrow said:
It will not be good for the cave (bolt rash) or for the rigger (rigging off suspect bolts) to keep placing more spits. Plus there is a distinct shortage of good limestone at the pitch heads in Rhino so there is only room for limited placements before the rigging becomes less than ideal. Once the current bolts are life expired then resin bolts are I fear inevitable.
Still, by then JRat will have found a new pot that we can practice our spit rigging skills on for a while.
cap n chris
Well-known member
.... Templeton would make an ideal SRT venue would it not?
Rhino's right hand route is something Im not considering, but does look impressive ! (I would love to have the ability to do this)
Could someone kindly give suggestions for a couple of other SRT trips in Mendips, around the same general level as Rhinos left route, but technically a little harder or different (with less exertion) ??
m/thanks
Could someone kindly give suggestions for a couple of other SRT trips in Mendips, around the same general level as Rhinos left route, but technically a little harder or different (with less exertion) ??
m/thanks
Les W
Active member
One of the best SRT caves on mendip is Hunters Hole. This has been resin bolted.Geoff R said:
There are three SRT routes in the cave and between them offer most of the challenges of SRT without ever getting too serious.
I use the cave for the first underground trip after I have trained people on a tower etc.
The Far right route is technically complex and Sago Pot route is a fine 20m free hang. There is a difficult hanging "Y" hang on the main drop which is close to the ledge on Far Right. This offers a useful stance to talk people through the "Y" hang if they are having dificultied.
All in all a superb cave and a very useful training facility as well.
cap n chris
Well-known member
There's also Castle's Hairy Ring but I've never done it. It could tie in with the bigger pitch and a couple of the others for a fine SRT experience.
Ha, thanks, Hunters Hole Ive already done some homework on as I did preparation work for this just in case Rhino Rift was being used by others last Saturday. It was mentioned to me that one pitch has a potential rub point if you are not careful, but my source said almost word for word your own comments Les.
Im sure Hunters will be our next SRT trip - it looks really good.
Ive not heard of Cap'n Chris's suggestion of Castle's Hairy Ring for an SRT trip - any further details ??
Im sure Hunters will be our next SRT trip - it looks really good.
Ive not heard of Cap'n Chris's suggestion of Castle's Hairy Ring for an SRT trip - any further details ??
cap n chris
Well-known member
It's in Gough's Cave so access is a bit of a problem since a tame member of staff needs to be hanging around
chriscastle46
Member
TAME? TAME? I'm the wild man of Mendip I'll have you know.
The Ring needs some modification; it's unnecessarily dificult and only for Real Men, so Cap'n Chris has'nt done it. Rhino and Thrupe are much more fun.
The Ring needs some modification; it's unnecessarily dificult and only for Real Men, so Cap'n Chris has'nt done it. Rhino and Thrupe are much more fun.
Les W
Active member
Geoff R said:
Right Hand Route is a superb SRT trip where you don't touch the floor of the passage from the top of the first pitch to the bottom of the third pitch.
A concious decision was made not to resin the right hand route.
There were several reasons
1. It didn't need doing
2. It was felt that turning it into a "Join the Dots" route would detract from the challenge / seriousness of the route. :shock:
3. It was felt by many people (Myself included) that it is useful to have an SRT route which is on spits as a "rigging training facility" the thinking for this is as follows:-
Rigging is a vanishing skill - anone can rig off of pre placed bolts but if people were to find a new cave or visit an unknown / no rigging topo cave most people would be unable to rig safely.
A good rigger knows where the bolts should be. Next time you are on an SRT trip watch the rigger, if he is any good he won't follow the bolts down the cave, he will rig the pitch head and abseil down to a point in the shaft where it is obvious to him that a rebelay or deviation is needed and then he will look for the bolt. It is even more obvious in a cave which is not "P" bolted.
This is a vanishing skill and in these days of join the dots rigging there are very few "new" people aquiring these skills. As more caves are "P" bolted less oportunities are available for people to hone their rigging skills.
Expedition caving needs people who can not only rigg on spits but know where to place the spits in the first place. Even "P" bolting needs these rigging skills - it is imperative that the people who are placing the "P" bolts get them in the correct position, being able to rig corectly is a pre requesite for this.
