Rhino Rift rigging ?

[Geoff R]

Les, As you will gather, Im one of these new people just acquiring skills, but am a little confused over comments. Please excuse my lack of terminology or knowledge.

Les W wrote

A concious decision was made not to resin the right hand route.
There were several reasons
1. It didn't need doing
2. It was felt that turning it into a "Join the Dots" route would detract from the challenge / seriousness of the route.
3. It was felt by many people (Myself included) that it is useful to have an SRT route which is on spits as a "rigging training facility" the thinking for this is as follows:-

Rigging is a vanishing skill - anone can rig off of pre placed bolts but if people were to find a new cave or visit an unknown / no rigging topo cave most people would be unable to rig safely................................................................................................................. This is a vanishing skill and in these days of join the dots rigging there are very few "new" people aquiring these skills. As more caves are "P" bolted less oportunities are available for people to hone their rigging skills.

I can well understand that not resin P'ing Rhino's right route because it was not needed is a fair comment in context of time.

When we were doing the <join the dots> left route the other week, it seemed to me that the right route had permanent large angle brackets installed on each one. (and a sling deviation hanging) My observation was that these looked rusty and suspect - to me, a relative novice - who would be happy to rig from his own installed spits but would need confidence that I was not using unacceptable suspect old attachments likely to fail; hence my comment that it was a pity that these were not resin P'd. ( obviously I would NEVER install my own - totally out of order)

Are they ALL fitted with large angle brackets ??
If so then does this not negate your comment about not wanting to join the dots .....

Also I'm curious how it is determined when they have aged beyond safe limits and need replacing .... Im assuming the spits are not stainless and that (from my metallurgy schooling) you cannot be <sure> just by tapping a ring note ...... and you dont wait until a couple dump a caver ??

As the Rhino right route is much more advanced than the left route, would it not be better to have resin P's AND an option to train with new installed spits ??

I just observe that as it is today it seems to discourage progression by making the next training step just that little bit too hard or suspect ..... in an area where there does not seem too many SRT opportunities. Are there other local caves to try pre-installed spits ?

Geoff

 

[Les W]

Les, As you will gather, Im one of these new people just acquiring skills, but am a little confused over comments. Please excuse my lack of terminology or knowledge.


I can well understand that not resin P'ing Rhino's right route because it was not needed is a fair comment in context of time.

When we were doing the <join the dots> left route the other week, it seemed to me that the right route had permanent large angle brackets installed on each one. (and a sling deviation hanging) My observation was that these looked rusty and suspect - to me, a relative novice - who would be happy to rig from his own installed spits but would need confidence that I was not using unacceptable suspect old attachments likely to fail; hence my comment that it was a pity that these were not resin P'd. ( obviously I would NEVER install my own - totally out of order)

Are they ALL fitted with large angle brackets ??
If so then does this not negate your comment about not wanting to join the dots .....

Sorry, I missed the bit about the rusty hangers.
I think the hangers you are refering to are actually for rescue hauling. They are NOT part of the Right Hand Route.
Right Hand Route is all on spits so there are no hangars in place until you fit them.

Also I'm curious how it is determined when they have aged beyond safe limits and need replacing .... Im assuming the spits are not stainless and that (from my metallurgy schooling) you cannot be <sure> just by tapping a ring note ...... and you dont wait until a couple dump a caver ??

Spits age with use. The action of screwing bolts into the spit in less than clean conditions results in wear of the threads, also over tightening can strip the threads (thats why spanners sold in caving shops tend to be short.)
Spits can accept a bolt and tighten to convince you that they are safe and then fail when loaded. This is why you should never rely on one bolt, also your rigging techniques should be very tight (minimal rebelay loops, shock absorbing knots etc.). A failure of one bolt with a shock load makes it likely that further bolts may also fail, especially if they are old and worn.

As the Rhino right route is much more advanced than the left route, would it not be better to have resin P's AND an option to train with new installed spits ??

Firstly covering pitch heads with new spits results in bolt rash. This leaves people to chose which bolt to use, with potentialy disasterous results if they get it wrong.
Secondly "P" hangers are actually quite obtrusive, if you shine your light down a pitch they all shine and you can see where to rig. If you learn to rig in this way you will never develop the skills to "know" when a rebelay/deviation should be necessary. When you rig off of existing spits you cannot find them until you are right next to them so instead you develope the skills to realise a rebelay/deviation is required, you then look around the pitch and if you are any good you will find a spit nearby. This is how you develop rigging skills. Once it becomes obvious to you where anchors should be placed then you can then start to place your own with confidence, spits or "P" bolts. It therefore follows that if you "P" bolt and spit bolt a pitch, the benefit of rigging off of spits is gone. you will easily spot the placements and fail to learn to read the cave.

I just observe that as it is today it seems to discourage progression by making the next training step just that little bit too hard or suspect ..... in an area where there does not seem too many SRT opportunities. Are there other local caves to try pre-installed spits ?

currently the bottom part of Thrupe Lane Swallet is rigged on spits (Slither pot) but most of these spits are regullarly submerged and fill with mud. I have failed to find them even when I know where they are

 

[Cookie]

When we were doing the <join the dots> left route the other week, it seemed to me that the right route had permanent large angle brackets installed on each one. (and a sling deviation hanging) My observation was that these looked rusty and suspect - to me, a relative novice - who would be happy to rig from his own installed spits but would need confidence that I was not using unacceptable suspect old attachments likely to fail; hence my comment that it was a pity that these were not resin P'd. ( obviously I would NEVER install my own - totally out of order)

You get top marks for taking a careful look at a placement before using it. I trust you do the same for P-anchors

Are they ALL fitted with large angle brackets ??

No, there are only the two you saw at the start of the route. There is a big stall boss back up passage if you don't want to use them, although in the past I have used them - and I'm still here.

Also I'm curious how it is determined when they have aged beyond safe limits and need replacing .... Im assuming the spits are not stainless and that (from my metallurgy schooling) you cannot be <sure> just by tapping a ring note ...... and you dont wait until a couple dump a caver ??

The threads tend to go rather than the anchor falling out of the wall. So if you can't tighten the bolt then don't use it - but don't over tighten it. There should be no movement of the spit in it hole, unlike a P-anchor where some movement is allowed before being deemed unsafe.

Despite such precautions, I have seen spits fail in use - a bit of a trouser filling moment for those involved. That's why we always have at least two belay points. That's why we consider the implications of a belay failing and rig accordingly.

I just observe that as it is today it seems to discourage progression by making the next training step just that little bit too hard or suspect .....

To make it easier, take it in stages. You can drop to the floor at the bottom of the first pitch rather than swing into the rift. That would shorten the trip and reduce the reserves of nervous energy required. To make it more interesting, get your mates to rig the left-hand pitch so you can do an exchange. Having got the first pitch sussed, you can go further on your next trip. By the way rigging the deviation at the bottom of the calcite slop is a bastard unless you are 6'6''.

Or find someone who's done the route before to lead. You can learn a lot by doing the de-rigging. The yee-har swing de-rigging the second pitch is classic. That should give you the confidence to lead next time.

 

[Mike W]

A couple of comments about checking anchors - stripped threads are a no-no, but tight threads from surface rust can safely be retrieved by running an 8mm tap through it and greasing well ( never force a bolt into a tight Spit, and always regrease a Spit after using it ). Apart from the obvious checks on placement ( is it in bedrock, is it fully home, will the pull be at 90 degrees to the axis ), it's worth examining the rock just around the hole. Sometimes fine cracks appear, radiating from the hole. This may happen years after placement. The main thing that kills Spits is corrosion, and spray seems worse than total immersion. The best way to preserve one is to leave a greased bolt lightly screwed into the hole - not practical on busy routes, but something to consider doing on remote explorations, or when climbing avens. The other thing that can fail is the 8mm bolt you rig with. If in doubt replace it - easily done !

Mention has been made of the safety of loose resin bolts. I never trusted them until I spent half an hour with drill, wedges and levers trying to remove one, for replacement. This said, no recently installed resin bolts should be loose. [ The problem is caused by inadequate cleaning of the hole and not installing the head of the anchor deep enough ]

 

[Geoff R]

Most thought provoking !

Les, thanks your comments, did not mean to imply a bolt rash, but just that perhaps one set of new spits could be placed when its considered the right time. I take your point about P's being very clearly seen and so not helping with learning placements.

Cookie wrote

You get top marks for taking a careful look at a placement before using it. I trust you do the same for P-anchors

Ha, I like to rig on the assumption any anchor could fail and for sure I check each one (and have a good look at others rigging if its not my own)

To make it easier, take it in stages. You can drop to the floor at the bottom of the first pitch rather than swing into the rift. That would shorten the trip and reduce the reserves of nervous energy required. To make it more interesting, get your mates to rig the left-hand pitch so you can do an exchange. Having got the first pitch sussed, you can go further on your next trip. By the way rigging the deviation at the bottom of the calcite slop is a bastard unless you are 6'6''.

This is certainly interesting - I did not realise from a first visit that you could cross back to the left route and so do the right in stages. I think I will have a chat with a couple of people about this....... I would certainly like to have a gentle go rigging this and would not really want follow others, but would like good advice to hand .....

thank you both.

 

[Geoff R]

Thanks also Mike, our postings crossed

 

[chriscastle46]

If anyone is still interested in the Right Hand Route, I had a chat on the phone to Mr. Whitelackington today. He and the Bracknell CC did it a few days ago, he said the bolts were fine, the only problem was the usual one of finding some of them. He'll be back home soon and I'm sure he will be happy to speak to anyone, or post his own reply.

 

[whitelackington]

Yes the Right Hand Route is still there and much more fun than the normal descent

 

[Slick]

Did the whole of the right hand route on the weekend (had missed out the third pitch before). Good fun and the bolts seemed fine!

 

[Geoff R]

can someone kindly advise

is it possible to do Pitch 1 and Pitch 2 on the Rhino right hand route before changing over to the left hand side resin P's (and out via others rigging) ??

many thanks
geoff r

 

[Andy Sparrow]

can someone kindly advise

is it possible to do Pitch 1 and Pitch 2 on the Rhino right hand route before changing over to the left hand side resin P's (and out via others rigging) ??

many thanks
geoff r

Yes. The second pitch take-off on the right hand route is in the rift above the usual, P bolted, left hand route. Normally you descend until a few metres above the floor and then do a tension-traverse to reach the alternative third pitch. All you have to do is carry on down and you will land back on the conventional left hand route. I would guess the pitch is about 20 metres.

 

[Geoff R]

Andy,

thats very kind - thank you

we did Hunter Hole this weekend and want to have a look at RR again, but right side, later this year

Geoff R

 

[whitelackington]

As the last time I did Rhino Rift, a few weeks ago, we did the right hand route all on spits.

Is it still true that on the left hand route, some bolts are still loose?

 

[Geoff R]

Left route - In March the far P (of Y hang) at the top of the first pitch had a clear don't use warning notice, in line with other web notifications that its loose. We used it OK, rigged tight.

Don't know if its now been redone ??

The others seemed OK at this time.

Geoff

 

[whitelackington]

So after just reading The C.S.C.C. minutes, does it now mean that the "p" bolt that was claimed loose is now considered to be O.K.


:?:

 

[Cookie]

So after just reading The C.S.C.C. minutes, does it now mean that the "p" bolt that was claimed loose is now considered to be O.K.

My god, someone actually reads the minutes. :shock:

The Bolting Officer wasn't at the meeting, so we only have his written report to go on.

The tester is quite an impressive bit of kit. It is effectively a "lightweight" hydraulic jack that can be placed over the bolt to apply a large measured forced. I can't exactly remember the force applied necessary to pass the test but it is something like hanging a Ford Fiesta off of it.

My reading of his report is the same as yours - the hanger is OK to use.

My reading is also that there is no intention to replace it anytime soon - I'm not sure that will be politically acceptable even though the hanger is demonstrably safe.

 

[Peter Burgess]

it is something like hanging a Ford Fiesta off of it.

Its a good job someone invented the test rig, then. You'd never get a Ford Fiesta into Rhino.

 

[whitelackington]

Yesterday B.D.C.C. did an exchange trip, with six people, not done that before,
good clean fun.