Rope removal from caves

[zomjon]

Can we get back on topic, this had been a really interesting discussion of an important issue!

 

[owd git]

If it aint yours *kin leave it alone. well said Alex.

 

[Pitlamp]

Can we get back on topic, this had been a really interesting discussion of an important issue!

My apologies Zomjon; then again I have tried to contribute properly to this topic as well.

Alex - I know Langcliffe and he does have a very real sense of humour. I was just intrigued why you two never seem to miss an opportunity for a bit of banter. Never mind; I suppose we should stick on topic, as Zomjon pointed out.

 

[al]

I'm amazed that this sort of thing can happen.

Apart from the theft angle, in a cave like that, there would be no sure way of knowing whether the ropes had been used by somebody who was still down there - we certainly can do without that kind of call-out.

All I can assume is that the perpetrator is somebody new to caving who has a lot to learn about safety matters.

 

[mikem]

Pwll Dwfn is rigged for diggers off a separate route of bolts from the main line that "tourists" use, thus reducing the likelihood of ropes being removed.

Mike

 

[georgenorth]

...All I can assume is that the perpetrator is somebody new to caving who has a lot to learn about safety matters.

This was not the case when the fixed ropes were stolen from Ireby, apparently by a well known and experienced caver. I believe this is what prompted the use of small laminated notes Duncan mentions above, alhough moving them to a less well travelled route was probably more important in ensuring they didn't get tampered with again.

 

[Gollum]

I'm amazed that this sort of thing can happen.

All I can assume is that the perpetrator is somebody new to caving who has a lot to learn about safety matters.

One of the people involved was an experienced caver who also trains and assess's cave leaders. That is why I was shocked about the removal of the ropes and wanted to get the opinion of other cavers. I am a mere LCMLA L2 and club caver but I see from the posts that most people agree the ropes should not have been removed.

 

[graham]

One of the people involved was an experienced caver who also trains and assess's cave leaders.

In which case this act of his, which clearly may have put other cavers at risk, should be reported to the BCA Training Committee forthwith.

 

[Pitlamp]

Whether or not people have qualifications in connection with taking other people caving isn't relevant. It doesn't make them any better at actual caving, or more responsible than all the regular cavers. When it comes down to it we're all cavers and common sense should prevail. Surely this can be sorted out over a pint without resorting to committees and bollotics?

 

[graham]

Whether or not people have qualifications in connection with taking other people caving isn't relevant. It doesn't make them any better at actual caving, or more responsible than all the regular cavers. When it comes down to it we're all cavers and common sense should prevail. Surely this can be sorted out over a pint without resorting to committees and bollotics?

Disagree, apparently this guy teaches other instructors. That does elevate it beyond a pint somewhat.

 

[cap n chris]

If the rope was damaged or noted as being unfit for purpose by a frequent visitor to the site, with the ability to make such an objective judgement, (who happened to be an award-holder) then its removal could be an associated incumbent requirement of 4.1 Action 028 BCA Minutes 7-5-13, would it not?

 

[graham]

If the rope was damaged or noted as being unfit for purpose by a frequent visitor to the site, with the ability to make such an objective judgement, (who happened to be an award-holder) then its removal could be an associated incumbent requirement of 4.1 Action 028 BCA Minutes 7-5-13, would it not?

What does that say about leaving people below with no way out?

 

[cap n chris]

Moot!

 

[Pitlamp]

Without knowing the full story I think perhaps it's not up to us to pontificate.

Sounds like someone may not have made the best decision (as it turned out) but presumably they did think it was the best decision at the time.

If I'd messed up in such circumstances, despite thinking I'd done the right thing - I'm not sure I'd relish the idea of some sort of kangaroo court being held on a public forum by people who weren't really involved anyway. It may even be that the person concerned doesn't bother with this forum and isn't aware of this discussion. Maybe it's best just to let the OP make his own mind up about what, if anything, he wants to do about this (now that it's been aired more widely).

However, I think that the over-riding principle should be that messing with other peoples' gear in caves, unless there's an extremely good and urgent reason, should be avoided.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If you spot a car with balding tyres parked in your street, would you go out and immobilise it by clamping it to protect others?

No, I thought not.

 

[estelle]

However, I think that the over-riding principle should be that messing with other peoples' gear in caves, unless there's an extremely good and urgent reason, should be avoided.

totally agree with this. I cannot believe someone thinks it's ok to remove someone else's gear without at least checking with the owner of the gear first. Surely via clubs/forums/contacting local area body (CSCC, DCA, CCC, CNCC or whoever based on region) should find out who's it is so they can be advised if someone else has deemed their gear unsafe and leave them to act on it. I would also think that unless you have been told otherwise and have permission to use in-situ gear, you would rig over the top or use another route and use your own gear anyway rather than risking using unknown kit.

 

[EwanCameron]

If your not going to replace them leave them there  :chair:

If ropes are in question report to DCA and post on here giving people chance to change them out ASAP

It's not the job of CIC's in the Peak to police fixed ropes in the caves

To use or not to use fixed ropes is the choice of the caver's not ego hungry leaders that wish to look good in front of clients or friends

May I suggest people leave egos in the car park and lets get in with the caving 😆

 

[EwanCameron]

One of the people involved was an experienced caver who also trains and assess's cave leaders.

In which case this act of his, which clearly may have put other cavers at risk, should be reported to the BCA Training Committee forthwith.

Dam right buddy !!! People should stop meddling in other people's caving

 

[Pete K]

Don't agree with the act based on the limited information being presented here. But it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether the person was CIC, club or public. Looks like just another excuse for the club cavers to have a pop at professional cavers. Have any of you contacted the person to ask their side?

 

[EwanCameron]

Don't agree with the act based on the limited information being presented here. But it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether the person was CIC, club or public. Looks like just another excuse for the club cavers to have a pop at professional cavers. Have any of you contacted the person to ask their side?

no Pete this is a small % of CIC's once more thinking they can do what the f&@k they like driven by personal egos rather than sound judgment and common sense and once more making the rules up for themselves !

As a - Experienced caver, CIC, Club Rep or Member we should be leading the way in setting and good example to others in what to do and not to do. 

How about the offender get himself on here to tell all what he did and why ?

or even better he could go and find the lads that rope it was and tell them and as he is there he can give them the pissing rope back  :spank: