cap n chris
Well-known member
EwanCameron said:
Perhaps toning your language might be a wise start.
Rope removal from caves
- Thread starter Gollum
- Start date
Perhaps toning your language might be a wise start.
EwanCameron
New member
Cap'n Chris said:
sorry did not know the mass of 12 year old cavers would be online reading this tonight I will try and be good
ah147
New member
The most damning thing in it all is the rope not been returned IMHO.
If you genuinely believe rigged rope is a danger, and wish to truly protect others, why not try to find out who the rope belonged to, return it with pointers as to why you removed it?
Having used these ropes whilst they were rigged (with permission) I can't comment on the rigging as a caver as I'm not experienced at cave rigging.
As an experienced climber, the rigging looked fine with nearly everything pretty tight and a handline running up to the first pitch and the high level traverse started well back from the edge.
The rope was also in a fine condition.
To be honest, I don't believe it was done to try and boost an ego, I think it was done to gain about 60m of rope!
If you genuinely believe rigged rope is a danger, and wish to truly protect others, why not try to find out who the rope belonged to, return it with pointers as to why you removed it?
Having used these ropes whilst they were rigged (with permission) I can't comment on the rigging as a caver as I'm not experienced at cave rigging.
As an experienced climber, the rigging looked fine with nearly everything pretty tight and a handline running up to the first pitch and the high level traverse started well back from the edge.
The rope was also in a fine condition.
To be honest, I don't believe it was done to try and boost an ego, I think it was done to gain about 60m of rope!
EwanCameron
New member
zomjon said:
sorry missed that bit
EwanCameron
New member
ah147 said:
Knowing what a top lad Gollum is I am quite shocked that he did not :spank: them
Gollum
Member
Pete K said:
I am a club caver who also caves for a living. There did use to be a big divide between professional and recreational cavers but that has decreased immensely over recent years. Many clubs now pay for a CIC to train club members. I think it is unfair to accuse club cavers of having a pop at professional cavers when a CIC trainer and assessor does something that most people on the forum disagree with.
I can't beleive how much of a response this topic has received and I never wanted it to be about recreational v professional caving. I just wanted to know peoples thoughts about removing ropes but it can only go to show that professionals can get it wrong also.
EwanCameron
New member
Gollum said:
You are spot on for starting this - caving belongs to everyone that loves to take part in the sport - it should be supported by pro caver's that do it for a living (Not Policed)
Pete K
Well-known member
The comment was aimed more at the general tone of some discussions on UKCaving descending to 'bash the CIC' level at any opportunity (brings to mind Monty Python - Burn Her!). Certainly knowing yourself and your involvement in both camps I'd not dream of pointing that finger at you Col.Gollum said:
Couldn't agree more. My point was that I don't think it helps anyone to divide our camp. Enough of this 'report them' tosh. I still wonder if anyone who has typed here has actually contacted the person for a comment (no idea who BTW). Yes, a new caver reading this will now know it is unacceptable to remove a rope in the eyes of the UKCaving readership but a one sided trial by internet forum is not the way to address issues.EwanCameron said:
Peter Burgess
New member
People's comments should be based upon the evidence put before them. If the evidence is wrong then correct it. If it is incomplete then add to it. If it is libelous then remove it. The internet is full of one-sided trials!
ah147
New member
Just to push against the grain a bit.
As a new caver I've seen little professional to club animosity and vice versa.
In fact the opposite. I've caved with a club exclusively. I can name 2 CICs, four level 2s and a level one within the club.
Then there was a whole group of instructors that I only met on one trip out, so I'm unsure what qualifications they have.
Excuse me if I've missed the point, but I'm pretty sure that people are just saying CICs should set a better example than a "normal" club caver as newbies are likely to look up to them?
I can back that up as I always pay a great deal of attention as to how these guys do things underground, and try to mimic the bits that look good.
This thread's the first mention I've heard of any animosity, and trust me, I trawl alot of threads on here looking for little pearls of wisdom.
What I'm basically trying to say is, is it possible that this issue is now resolved and people are simply remembering the time when it was a big issue? Or is my club a bit of a haven from it all?
As a new caver I've seen little professional to club animosity and vice versa.
In fact the opposite. I've caved with a club exclusively. I can name 2 CICs, four level 2s and a level one within the club.
Then there was a whole group of instructors that I only met on one trip out, so I'm unsure what qualifications they have.
Excuse me if I've missed the point, but I'm pretty sure that people are just saying CICs should set a better example than a "normal" club caver as newbies are likely to look up to them?
I can back that up as I always pay a great deal of attention as to how these guys do things underground, and try to mimic the bits that look good.
This thread's the first mention I've heard of any animosity, and trust me, I trawl alot of threads on here looking for little pearls of wisdom.
What I'm basically trying to say is, is it possible that this issue is now resolved and people are simply remembering the time when it was a big issue? Or is my club a bit of a haven from it all?
DCA has discussed at its recent Council Meeting the matter of removal of gear from pre-rigged pitches and what to do if the gear was felt to be unsafe.
It was agreed that to remove the gear without informing the owners or attempting to return it to them was, effectively, theft. It was also suggested that it was preferable to supply your own gear for pitches and avoid using in-situ rigging which others have placed. The consensus arrived at was the following advice:
i. If it is necessary to leave a pitch rigged because of ongoing work, try to ensure that local cavers know about this via regional council website, UKcaving or note left on gear at pitch head. If possible leave the gear so that it does not obstruct cavers wanting to rig their own gear.
ii. If you come across unsafe gear, leave it in place or, if no-one is below and you can do so, pull it up and leave it at the head of the pitch so that unsafe sections of rope can be seen. Contact the owners if possible and advise that their gear appears to be unsafe. Advise DCA and other local cavers of the situation.
Note that, as a policy, DCA does not rig handlines or fixed ropes to the P-bolts it installs - it is your responsibility to check before using anything found pre-rigged with rope. (The exception is the fixed line on traverse before the head of JH Bitch Pitch, which is part of a BCA trial and is being monitored by BCA - but still check this before use.)
Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
It was agreed that to remove the gear without informing the owners or attempting to return it to them was, effectively, theft. It was also suggested that it was preferable to supply your own gear for pitches and avoid using in-situ rigging which others have placed. The consensus arrived at was the following advice:
i. If it is necessary to leave a pitch rigged because of ongoing work, try to ensure that local cavers know about this via regional council website, UKcaving or note left on gear at pitch head. If possible leave the gear so that it does not obstruct cavers wanting to rig their own gear.
ii. If you come across unsafe gear, leave it in place or, if no-one is below and you can do so, pull it up and leave it at the head of the pitch so that unsafe sections of rope can be seen. Contact the owners if possible and advise that their gear appears to be unsafe. Advise DCA and other local cavers of the situation.
Note that, as a policy, DCA does not rig handlines or fixed ropes to the P-bolts it installs - it is your responsibility to check before using anything found pre-rigged with rope. (The exception is the fixed line on traverse before the head of JH Bitch Pitch, which is part of a BCA trial and is being monitored by BCA - but still check this before use.)
Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
