Scouts Caving.

[Owld Butt]

Hi all I occasionally take  Scouts caving in the Forest of Dean for which I have to have a Form Cave, Which is signed by my local DC and by our County Caving Assessor,
I also have to applie for a Caving Permit which is issued by FoDCCAG [Forest of Dean Cave Conservation and Acess Group] Who require a copy of my Form Cave and a copy of the Scout Association Public Liability Insurance,
If I take them for a weekend two days of caving we also have to applie for a Event Permit with a risk assessment  from Forestry Commission and takes about six weeks to get,
My question is do other Scout Leaders/Cavers have to do as much paper work.

  Cheers Owld Butt..

 

[cap n chris]

It doesn't seem too onerous; you can make your life simpler by having multiple sets of stapled photocopies of the Form Cave and Scout Association PL insurance ready for posting when applying for a Caving Permit from FoDCCAG.

I'm not sure whether you can ask for a batch of Event Permits up front and simply fill in the relevant details when organising a weekend event. FWIW it's pretty standard to have to apply for caving permits a month and a half in advance of a trip so waiting a similar length of time for an RA from the Forestry Commission doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Just wait until ISA kicks in (now delayed probably until 2011).

 

[ianball11]

I was asked to talk to the local scouts about caving a few weeks ago and it was pretty strange knowing that to be able to take them caving which is the natural progression from showing them my kit and answering their questions  (how long can you hold your breath?!!)

I think I will try to get my head around the necessary skills and qualifications to take scouts caving as it would be good fun and as scouting was what started my interest in caving all those years ago I imagine there are kids who would really enjoy it.

Ian B.

 

[stevep]

The short answer to your question is yes.

The Forestry Commission and FoDCCAG paperwork is the price we pay for access to caves where there is no public access and the landowner wants some form of control in place to ensure that  those accessing his land are reasonably organised and that he is protected from liability claims,  similar agreements exist for some Yorkshire caves as well as those in South Wales. The Scout authorisation system to allow you to cave with Scouts is far less time-consuming than the following the NGB route.  As suggested by Chris you can cut down on your time considerably by sharing risk assessments with fellow leaders as well as cave route plans etc. 

I'm afraid the only way to cave without bucket loads of paperwork is within a traditional caving club  we are all consenting adults and responsible for ourselves although even there liability issues have arisen and that's why we pay our insurance if we are sensible
Steve

 

[big-palooka]

Hi all I occasionally take  Scouts caving in the Forest of Dean for which I have to have a Form Cave, Which is signed by my local DC and by our County Caving Assessor,
I also have to applie for a Caving Permit which is issued by FoDCCAG [Forest of Dean Cave Conservation and Acess Group] Who require a copy of my Form Cave and a copy of the Scout Association Public Liability Insurance,
If I take them for a weekend two days of caving we also have to applie for a Event Permit with a risk assessment  from Forestry Commission and takes about six weeks to get,
My question is do other Scout Leaders/Cavers have to do as much paper work.

  Cheers Owld Butt..

Yes and more.......to comply with Scout Association requirements.......

CRB check
Nights Away Permit  and Nights Away Notification Form if you're staying away overnight/weekend
Health Forms/Parental Consent Forms
Cave Route Plan and Emergency Procedure Forms
DC's notification of Adventurous Activity Form
Home Contact/In touch Procedure
SA Risk Assessment ..........

Without an electronically stored library of forms it would be a total nightmare.....but which of those procedures are not necessary?

Paul C
(Waltham Scouts - Leicestershire)

 

[Dickie]

Don't take them as Scouts - take them as private individuals, preferably under the auspices of an established caving club - worked for me!

 

[crickleymal]

Don't take them as Scouts - take them as private individuals, preferably under the auspices of an established caving club - worked for me!

I think you'd be on tricky legal ground there, especially if there was an accident. I'm not a lawyer but if you take a load of scouts on a trip and you're a scout leader and the trip was organised by you because you are a scout leader .... You can see where this is going. It would only take one litigious parent to land you in a whole bucketload of trouble.

 

[graham]

Don't take them as Scouts - take them as private individuals, preferably under the auspices of an established caving club - worked for me!

Only worked for you 'cos nothing went wrong.

 

[gus horsley]

My question is do other Scout Leaders/Cavers have to do as much paper work.
  Cheers Owld Butt..

You should count yourself lucky that you don't have to do more paperwork.  At the end of the day there are some scout caving leaders who aren't particularly experienced.  I used to be a County Caving Assessor many years ago and resigned from the position because I refused to sign the paperwork to authorise a certain individual who didn't make the grade as far as I was concerned; I was subsequently put under pressure from the County Commissioner who wasn't happy with my assessment.  As far as I can see the paperwork hasn't changed - maybe it needs updating to reflect the fact that taking novices underground is a very serious responsibility.

 

[mikem]

Activity permission (I'm not sure that you need the cave permits as well as this, as both are arranged with the FC):

If you are considering running your own event or activity in our forests or woodland, we host everything from charity fun runs to motor sport rallies. Depending on the size and nature of the event you may be required to apply for a formal permission. This helps ensure that all events in Forestry Commission woodlands are safe for both participants and the visiting public.

If you wish to apply for permission for an event or activity then you need to consider the following general points:

    * You will be required to carry public liability insurance to cover the event ? usually to a minimum of ?2 million.
    * You will be required to complete and submit a risk assessment for the event.
    * Depending upon the size and nature of the event there may be a cost involved. This helps us to cover any staff time to set up the permission, any work we need to carry out before or after your event and to re-coup other reasonable costs particularly if the event or activity is a business venture.

To apply for an event or activity permission contact us.

 

[Sally-J]

It sounds like much of the paperwork is caused by location related permits. If you can travel a bit then wouldn't Eglwys Faen on Llangattock or something similar cut down on paperwork?

 

[Gollum]

Tickets and paperwork are taking the fun out of activities :read:. I have enjoyed taking groups out as a local cave leader and training people to do SRT as a club training officer for many years. I recently decided to go for my CIC and was given a ridiculous task of collecting 40 samples of static rope . I just can't be bothered with the red tape and paperwork any more. Lets just ignore the idiots and just do it :ras:.

 

[Burt]

Tickets and paperwork are taking the fun out of activities :read:. I have enjoyed taking groups out as a local cave leader and training people to do SRT as a club training officer for many years. I recently decided to go for my CIC and was given a ridiculous task of collecting 40 samples of static rope . I just can't be bothered with the red tape and paperwork any more. Lets just ignore the idiots and just do it :ras:.

Gollum, I can't quite understand your point of view on this. If you've gone for your CIC you must be aware of the standards of professional cave leadership, and as such probably seen your fair share of poor leadership into the bargain. Also your tag under the posts would indicate you are involved with an outdoor centre of some description; surely you work within that to an approved (AALA, BCA) standard? and yet you seem to be snubbing it?

or are you just taking the p*ss and fishing for a reaction?

 

[ianball11]

Just wants his precious back  :

I've always enjoyed the caving worlds lask of required qualifications but can see why its necessary in certain areas and perhaps its time to get serious about teaching people safe cave practices and check my practises are safe first by getting a recognised qualification.

When I was talking to the Scouts one question was 'am I a professional caver?'  It felt a little like a let down saying no its just a hobby!

Ian B.

 

[cap n chris]

Tickets and paperwork are taking the fun out of activities

... perhaps, but they also open doors which enable you, as leader, to have a great deal of fun while also providing fun for others - perhaps it's not PC to actually enjoy your work nowadays, though.

 

[unicorn]

Hi Owld thank you for your information about the Scout Caving. This is very much useful information and it will help out the people who actually wants to do Scouts caving.

 

[finster]

Just for added info, take a look at www.scoutcaving.com, its not complete but getting there! The newly formed Association of Scout Caving Teams have put this together to help Scouters get intouch with the right people within scouting who wish to go caving or get a cave activity permit. 

 

[cap n chris]

What is the Scouts Association motto?

(Borderline trolling alert, btw).

Very slick and good looking website, Mr. Finster!

 

[finster]

Sadly I can't take credit for the site, I was one of the guys on the Bucks Scout Team that built it. But its a good site. Also check out the link for the Bucks County, that site is good too! not that I'm bias being the Adviser/Assesor for Bucks but we get loads of response from it....

now as for the moto surely Always be prepared!

 

[idriswilliams]

Hi all I occasionally take  Scouts caving in the Forest of Dean for which I have to have a Form Cave, Which is signed by my local DC and by our County Caving Assessor,
I also have to applie for a Caving Permit which is issued by FoDCCAG [Forest of Dean Cave Conservation and Acess Group] Who require a copy of my Form Cave and a copy of the Scout Association Public Liability Insurance,
If I take them for a weekend two days of caving we also have to applie for a Event Permit with a risk assessment  from Forestry Commission and takes about six weeks to get,
My question is do other Scout Leaders/Cavers have to do as much paper work.

  Cheers Owld Butt..

Hi Owld butt,

Sorry that you find the paperwork a pain, don't we all! I can't comment on the Forestry Commission side of things in FoD. However, someone else suggested going eleswhere where the access is not so complicated. Nick Coward mentioned the Association of Scout Caving Teams. I am Chair of the ASCT and our mission is to promote caving as an activity for Scouts. Currently we have about 10 Scout counties with active caving teams, however, we also maintain a list  of contacts who are operating as lone Scout Cavers in other Counties. If any such as yourself would like to be kept up-to-date with what is currently going on in Scout caving please get in touch. If you go to www.scoutcaving. com and view the County Locator you will be able to contact me direct by clicking on Shropshire.

We will also be able to help with assessment for a Scout Caving Permit, due to changes your Form Cave can not have many more months before it expires. We also arrange occassional weekends in different caving areas which gives an oppertunity to share methods and techniques and tomeet with others doing similar things.

We would be pleased to recieve some contact from you as our knowledge of who is active with Scouts from many areas is very sketchy.

Idris Williams Chair ASCT & Shropshire Scouts Caving Team