Babyhagrid
Well-known member
Hopefully the new pull through "chains" will be similar to the system already in place in the ventilator pitches in peak cavern. These work very very well for pulling through
Simpson Chains
- Thread starter Ian Ball
- Start date
Stevie
Member
Not trying to start an argument or passing judgement but a genuine question to learn - why would bits of old ropes be left at the pitch head? I’ve been through Simpson’s many times and never had a need to leave / use any added bits. I’ve climbed in the Alps where it’s good idea to back up or replace existing tat before abbing down a face but why does it help in a bolted cave where the rope runs directly through the bolts?
langcliffe
Well-known member
If only we knew why people leave bits of tat and rusty maillons in P-hangers... It's one of life's mysteries.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
They looked like a two sided version of this. But with a large maillon instead of a ring. And with maillons between the hangers and the chain. But this style of chain
Here is an example of chains-and-ring installation in the Peak from the DCA fixed aid website.
Fixed Aids
Numerous fixed ropes exist within the caves and mines of the UK. Often this is to aid climbing awkward passages or traverses but occasionally they may be fixed on pitches that can only be accessed…
thedca.org.uk
I am guessing that it is intended to install something similar. But whether this matches the intention of the proposer I do not know, since there is no clear proposal for the community to consider.
@Ian P please could you say whether people have asked for this, and how many?
Can you give an indication of how much of a problem the current arrangement is for pull-throughs? How many times has it caused a problem, for example?
In what sense is it notorious? As far as I can tell people have been doing pull-through trips down this cave for a long time, and largely managing.
I'm trying to get a feel for the context of the proposal and whether it's really necessary or would simply be convenient, or perhaps there are other reasons.
It seems like you have already installed two new anchors in one of the photos - did you do this with the chain in mind, or are they fine for a pull-through as they are?
Can you give an indication of how much of a problem the current arrangement is for pull-throughs? How many times has it caused a problem, for example?
In what sense is it notorious? As far as I can tell people have been doing pull-through trips down this cave for a long time, and largely managing.
I'm trying to get a feel for the context of the proposal and whether it's really necessary or would simply be convenient, or perhaps there are other reasons.
It seems like you have already installed two new anchors in one of the photos - did you do this with the chain in mind, or are they fine for a pull-through as they are?
Various reports on here between 2007 and 2012 (in 2013 they forgot to untie the end knot) - either people have got better at rigging it, are leaving tat or failing to mention losses! (I get the impression it's the middle of those & other people are having to remove it)
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langcliffe
Well-known member
Personally, for what it's worth, in what I suspect is getting on for fifty pull-throughs in the two systems I have never encountered a problem with ropes getting stuck. Having seen some practices in use, I suspect that it's technique that is to blame for a large majority of rope jams.
Having said that, many of the pull-throughs in France use chains, and I would certainly not object to them being more widely used here (there's one on Oliver Lloyd Aven, if I remember rightly). Whether it will solve the problem of bad technique is another matter.
Having said that, many of the pull-throughs in France use chains, and I would certainly not object to them being more widely used here (there's one on Oliver Lloyd Aven, if I remember rightly). Whether it will solve the problem of bad technique is another matter.
PeteHall
Moderator
This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
If it's an improvement (which it clearly is), it's non-permanent (so nobody can argue that it's damaging the cave), and there is money and a willing volunteer to do the work, what possible disadvantage is there?
I actually have some similar ideas in mind as a "pull-up" for some pitches in Mendip, that I'm worried will be lost if original exploration spits fail, either losing areas of the cave, or necessitating bolt climbing again. I expect that this would get BCA funding, so a volunteer with suitable experience is probably the main stumbling point...
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
The ladder dig in GB would be a prime candidate!
A pull-up would be much much nicer than the philistine approach of using a ladder as an etrier up a chain.
flashheart
Member
Another potential advantage of pulling through a single maillon or small ring linked by a chain would be to enable the use of a figure of eight descender block. This arrangement is widely used in canyoning pull throughs to allow easy lowering in a rescue situation without rope cutting. Essentially a tied off figure of eight descender acts like a carabiner block on the pull down side of the rope, and can be quickly released if the need arises.
I agree with IanB that it's not necessary, but voted for it because I think the benefits substantially outweigh the drawbacks.
Well done IanB for putting an alternative view and making sure it is properly thought through by everyone.
PeteHall
Moderator
You are obviously correct. However it would be an improvement.
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