Smashed Formations

[mr conners]

I seem to stumble across piles of these on many trips, whats the situation on this? And is it ok to take them home with me? I have found some whopping stals lying on the cave floor, seems a shame to leave them down there really.

 

[AndyF]

Hi there.

In short, no they should not be taken. Broken straws and stalls are still part of the caves fabric, and should not be removed.

The only exception would be as part of some genuine research, such as dating or chemical analysis....but never for just "decoration" puposes.

 

[Dropper]

Have to say leave them there. They look crap outside anyway.

 

[graham]

Leave 'em where they are. As Andy F says they are still part of the fabric of the cave; be aware that many stal have been broken by perfectly natural processes.

 

[SamT]

Agreed, broken stal should stay in situ. - perhaps put to one side if lay on the main path. It provides other cavers with a view of what the cave was perhaps once like. this gives us evidence of the passage morphology. i.e. fossil cave. Giving us evidence of when/how it was formed ( dating, active, part active, no longer active etc) which can in turn give us clues about potential digs etc.

so for many many reasons, other than purly aesthetic ones. Broken stal should stay insitue.

and yes - it does look crap once outdoors.

 

[martinr]

Please leave broken stal where you find it.

As has been stated by others, stal can break naturally and broken stal is part of the history of the cave. As an example, here is a photo of Upper Flood by Mark Shinwell (from http://mendipcavinggroup.org.uk/photos.html) with at least 3 pieces of broken stal:

This photo was taken shortly after the cave passage was discovered. Only a few trips had taken place and the diggers confirm the stal was already broken when the passage was found.

 

[cap n chris]

There's another reason to leave all stal in caves; there are many instances of people "inheriting" old bits of stal and subsequently (naively) putting them up for sale on Ebay, thus (a) establishing a "legitimacy" in the eyes of others that such behaviour is ok and (b) unwittingly resulting in promoting the idea as a "get rich quick" scheme and culminating in (c) the sad and real possibility that people then specifically harvest formations from caves to sell them similarly.

Also, it may only be "a broken bit of stal" but to a cave conservationist it's often an easy job to mend it and replace it from whence it came.

Summary: leave all broken stal where it is. Thanks, muchly.

 

[cap n chris]

BTW.....

Fantastic photograph! 

 

[Groundhog]

Hi Mr. Conners, now do you know who I am!

 

[Paul Dyson]

Hi Chris and Connors,
I have found you both.

 

[mr conners]

Ah ha, got you both out of the woodwork.
I knew you wouldnt be able to resist this one Chris. Nice pic Paul.
I am well aware that we must leave the caves as we find them, its just such a shame that as humans we can limit the damage we seem to do but the "leave no trace" ethic is virtually impossible. Also this could promote a discussion that digging is in effect damaging the cave's fragile system.
Discuss, or tut and dont bother.

 

[cap n chris]

Also this could promote a discussion that digging is in effect damaging the cave's fragile system.

Mebbe. Comparable to human existence damaging the earth's fragile system. Unless, of course, you consider that humans are part of the earth's fragile system and, by extension, cave diggers are part of the cave's fragile system in which case all is well and sunny!

 

[moocher]

There's another reason to leave all stal in caves; there are many instances of people "inheriting" old bits of stal and subsequently (naively) putting them up for sale on Ebay, thus (a) establishing a "legitimacy" in the eyes of others that such behaviour is ok and (b) unwittingly resulting in promoting the idea as a "get rich quick" scheme and culminating in (c) the sad and real possibility that people then specifically harvest formations from caves to sell them similarly.

would it not be worth complaining to ebay,to put a halt on selling cave artifacts (by w*****s who don't no what they are doing) or worse still who do!                 
thanks for the pic martinr very nice 

 

[cap n chris]

Yep; UK cavers have been doing that for several years now. NSS had some success in USA, N/BCA has IIRC contacted Ebay and regional Conservation peeps can make direct contact with vendors to attempt a sale withdrawal; there is nowt wrong with cavers making polite approaches either of course. "Eyes and ears" to look out for stuff and some education to explain why it's not on helps a lot.

 

[a]

What is the opinion on digging and stals?  I have a digging friend who says that he often breaks stals to try and widen a passage that he is digging in.  To me, this seems a very strange idea - is there any regulation controlling how people and where people dig?

 

[Duncan Price]

What is the opinion on digging and stals?  I have a digging friend who says that he often breaks stals to try and widen a passage that he is digging in.  To me, this seems a very strange idea - is there any regulation controlling how people and where people dig?

...and what if for example, the dig you were working was full of delaminated flowstone caused by quarry blasting which had been removed in order to get down the near vertical bedding?  The surface spoil heap contains a lot of calcite which would no doubt attract a tidy sum in the crystal shops of Glastonbury (maybe even finance the hire of another Hy-Mac?). Has anybody got access to a rock saw - they would make fantastic coasters - and it is not even April 1st!

 

[cap n chris]

is there any regulation controlling...

OFCAVE?

Regulation of whom, by whom, for whom, paid for by whom, overseen/accredited by whom, reporting findings to whom la-la-la?

You are joking of course.

 

[graham]

Regulation for that sort of thing? Not as such. As Duncan implies there are a vast number of different circumstances in which stal can be found. If you damaged pristine formations in a classified SSSI you might be in trouble, but if you are removing old battered stuff from various situations you might not be.

As with so much "it all depends..."

 

[cap n chris]

If you damaged pristine formations in a classified SSSI you might be in trouble

Having (wasted my time) organising the collection of evidence* for the police in just such a case, which was subsequently dropped by the CPS, I think it's reasonable to say that Graham wouldn't be far off if he changed the word "might" to "won't".


* This included eye witnesses (including members of the Avon & Somerset constabulary who recognised (known criminals) in the cave while they just happened to be in the same cave at the same time!), DNA evidence from cigarette/joint ends, and third party corroboration of their presence in the cave by another group, plus the dropped wallet containing photo ID of one of the criminals in the cavers' car park). The case was dropped on "reasonable doubt" grounds and I was assured that only the installation of CCTV with film of people actually caught in the act of breaking stal would be enough to make CPS go ahead with the case. Therefore please forgive me if I think this thread is bollocks and it's going nowhere.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

More taping is what we need - lots of it.

And signs.


And glue?

I remember one dig where there appeared to be loads of smashed straws, but on closer inspection they were noted to be discarded fag-ends.