Squeezes in Gentlewomans to Youds trip

[cavermark]

You may be right but even a very quick review of the causes of fatal accidents in British caves over the last forty or fifty years would suggest that we're pretty good at avoiding rockfall (which suggests most people score risk of rockfall similar to you), but as a group have underestimated the risks of drowning far too many times. 

Or it could suggest pitch heads have been safely gardened

I'm not suggesting that removing the odd squeeze would have saved many lives but that it's a scenario well worth giving a little more thought to than a quick skim of the weather forecast  :-\

I'm not suggested a "quick skim" for these sort of caves - rather a thorough consideration of the recent weather, the forecast and the conditions in the catchment.

 

[bograt]

the conditions in the catchment.

Which, in the case of Manifold is some distance away!, I have stood on the bridge upstream of Darfur in glorious sunshine and watched a flood pulse surge down the river bed, an impressive sight. Caused by an unexpected localised squall on the moors a few miles away.

 

[cavermark]

Fair point. I suppose if the Darfur squeeze was enlarged few people would notice or care. Advocating it on this thread gives the wrong message about the general principle though.

 

[bograt]

I agree that this particular instance should possibly have not been raised here, I think that people should refrain from condemnation unless they are familiar with the local circumstances.
Also I think it should be considered that in the case of a rescue incident, any restrictions would be significantly removed, CRO teams don't faff about! (thank goodness!)

 

[Brains]

I would imagine the gravel squeeze in the original post will naturally re-establish itself in due course, until a little digging is again required for each through trip - I would suggest no need of a special trip to create another artificial feature? As for the wider debate well that seems to be a can of worms...  :-\

 

[cavermark]

Also I think it should be considered that in the case of a rescue incident, any restrictions would be significantly removed, CRO teams don't faff about! (thank goodness!)

Devils advocate might say from a conservation point of view that if rescue would destroy a load of cave to get someone out, maybe people shouldn't go into that bit of cave in the first place (especially if nice formations are involved).
It reminds me of the debate about carrying mobile phones in the mountains (if you know you can always call rescue it doesn't feel so remote/committing). Thankfully this debate doesn't yet apply underground!

 

[paul]

Also I think it should be considered that in the case of a rescue incident, any restrictions would be significantly removed, CRO teams don't faff about! (thank goodness!)

Devils advocate might say from a conservation point of view that if rescue would destroy a load of cave to get someone out, maybe people shouldn't go into that bit of cave in the first place (especially if nice formations are involved).
It reminds me of the debate about carrying mobile phones in the mountains (if you know you can always call rescue it doesn't feel so remote/committing). Thankfully this debate doesn't yet apply underground!

However, what may be a relatively easy section of cave passage on the way in may be impossible if stretcher-bound on the way out due to an unlucky accident...

 

[Speleokitty]

"Devils advocate might say from a conservation point of view that if rescue would destroy a load of cave to get someone out, maybe people shouldn't go into that bit of cave in the first place (especially if nice formations are involved)"

I take it you haven't been involved in many recues. Those people who need to be rescued are generally no longer very mobile/bendable and/or wrapped in a casualty bag and stretcher. I speak as someone who has experienced the thin "man" digger, rescuer and casualty perspective over several decades.

Its f'***in  difficult to get a broken caver out of a tight place. It?s much more difficult (and very f****kin painful) if you are the casualty concerned.
Maybe your perspective will change if you are ever unfortunate enough to need a bit of help to hospital/home.

 

[ah147]

However, what may be a relatively easy section of cave passage on the way in may be impossible if stretcher-bound on the way out due to an unlucky accident...

Cwm Dwr crawl springs to mind! Very easy whilst able bodied, absolute nightmare with a stretcher!

 

[Peter Burgess]

One thing that helps a seriously hurt casualty survive is getting to a place of safety as quickly as possible - and that in essence means a hospital.

 

[cavermark]

Devil's advocate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with, for the sake of debate.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Indeed. For the sake of debate. i.e. responses are invited. Good stuff.

 

[cavermark]

Indeed. For the sake of debate. i.e. responses are invited. Good stuff.

I've enjoyed our debate today, some interesting stuff 

 

[ah147]

Devil's advocate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with, for the sake of debate.

Indeed. For the sake of debate. i.e. responses are invited. Good stuff.

I've enjoyed our debate today, some interesting stuff 

You two just made my day!



I've had a pretty crappy day...

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Quote from: Chocolate fireguard on Yesterday at 09:30:37 pm

    Trolling.

    In my day it might have been called "gently taking the piss out of people who are starting to go off on one".

    Now it seems that if the post isn`t marked with a =) or one of those silly smiley faces used by people who struggle to spell =) then it`s trolling.

    I have read the 2 and a bit pages of this post and can`t see any evidence that anybody has done anything wrong (like damaging natural cave passage).

    Come on you lot, get a grip.

Quote from: dunc

Because people who don't know you can tell what you mean by a faceless post on a forum. Not.
So what if it needs marking with a wink or a grin or whatever, this is modern life. If you can't handle that don't indulge in it, get a grip as some say.......

I presume the mangled English of the first line of your reply was an example of the "modern life" you refer to later.
A simple question mark at the end of the sentence and omission of the "Not" would have been far more subtle. More effective too as it would have told the reader that some sort of decision was needed and perhaps prompted several rereading of the sentence, with a dawning awareness of your verbal finesse, dunc.
So far as the information content goes, you`re wrong. Most people will be flexible and imaginative enough in their thinking to know when someone "admits" what I did in my original post it`s a windup. One person has said so, the rest wouldn`t have bothered.
I will admit that I was originally going to mention my intention to enlarge Freeze Squeeze so I could get my walking frame into Derbyshire Hall, but I decided that would be much too obvious. Next time dunc I promise to go with my first instincts, just for you.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Oh Mr Fireguard, what shall I do?
I want to go down Darfur but I'll end up in the poo.
Take me back to Carlswark, as quickly as you can.
Oh Mister Fireguard what a silly girl I am!

 

[cavermark]

    I have read the 2 and a bit pages of this post and can`t see any evidence that anybody has done anything wrong (like damaging natural cave passage).

    Come on you lot, get a grip.

Did you miss the bits about the squeezes in Meccano passage and Winnats Head? or do you not classify removal of rock in them as damaging natural cave passage? (presumably because one is mined and the other is dug through boulder choke)?

 

[paul]

However, what may be a relatively easy section of cave passage on the way in may be impossible if stretcher-bound on the way out due to an unlucky accident...

Cwm Dwr crawl springs to mind! Very easy whilst able bodied, absolute nightmare with a stretcher!

It doesn't have to be a low crawl like Cwm Dwr. The casualty fell a short distance from the far end of the traverse above the steamway in P8. De was able to move slowly largely under his own steam while wearing a body harness with a lot of assitance - luckily not in a stretcher. But:

A 30 year old male caver on an guided trip slipped in the streamway and dislocated his right knee. Two companions went for help and three stayed with him. The police were contacted and they alerted DCRO at about 15.15 on Sunday afternoon. The team doctor and medical officer attended the casualty and after administering pain relief they were able to relocate his knee and splint his leg. After consulting with the casualty it was decided to carry out the evacuation with him in a harness and splint sooner than in a stretcher. The rescue was inevitably an extremely slow process and involved a lot of specialist rigging on pitches and traverses. The evacuation started just before 20.00 and the casualty reached the surface just after 02.20 on Monday morning. Forty team �members and a number of other other cavers were involved in the rescue including two paramedics from the East Midlands Ambulance Service Cave Rescue Support Unit.

From Incident 322 on http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html

 

[ah147]

Paul was that a rescue involving (as the rescued party so the speak) several members of this forum and Orpheus?

I remember being told about it at the spot he fell on one of my very early trips!


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[paul]

Paul was that a rescue involving (as the rescued party so the speak) several members of this forum and Orpheus?

I remember being told about it at the spot he fell on one of my very early trips!


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I've replied by PM and will also warn myself for being Off Topic!