Squeezes in Gentlewomans to Youds trip

[ah147]

Obvious troll is obvious?


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[cavermark]

If a squeeze through bedrock/boulders/calcite is enlarged to fit through at the first instance of exploration and then enlarged again soon after to get bigger members of the digging team through (or if the digging team decide they want to make it passable for a stretcher etc.) this is o.k. 
Once years have passed and lots of people have been through it is not acceptable to further enlarge them.

I'm a large caver and there are some trips I know I will never do e.g. Strans Gill - that's fine - there's more than enough cave that I can fit in.
I had a real struggle with the freeze squeeze to Derbyshire Hall and that is probably close to my limit - but the memory is really vivid and I would be gutted if someone decided to enlarge it.

 

[ah147]

I'd say the only justifiable enlargement of established squeezes/routes would be in the case of rescue, in which case if you want to take down dynamite and blast it all to hell it's entirely justifiable. 


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[SamT]

Yep - what those two just said.

I assume chocolate fireguard is trolling.

Not too sure about digging out gravel/miners fill as in gentlewomans - that will presumably re-fill, or if anyone was super arsed, could be re-instated.

but drilling away/capping etc established 'classic' squeezes, that once altered cannot be re-instated is a hugely selfish act and by all accounts, there seems to be one perpetrator acting outside the normal caving circles and ethics.

I've heard a name bandied about.  Will wait to see what transpires.

 

[ah147]

I've heard a name bandied about too. Unfortunately have the memory of a sieve and can't recall it. Recall his club. But obviously shall not name the club and possibly tarnish a good name.


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[Gollum]

If people think they know who it is then surely they need to ask the person the question. Then at least the person can either admit or clear their name.

Can't see what can be done even if we find out who it is except ask them not to. Maybe the club committee could raise the issue if the person responsible is a club member

 

[cavermark]

Can't see what can be done even if we find out who it is except ask them not to. Maybe the club committee could raise the issue if the person responsible is a club member

I'm sure they can be asked quite "firmly" if asking them nicely doesn't work...

 

[martinm]

Ropes are being left in caves where there is no sign of diggers or divers

Interestingly someone had left ropes on the down stream pitches of Winnats Head - seems like a really odd place to leave ropes.

I think you will find that it might be to do with this:- "Winnats Head Downstream Pitches Anchors - UPDATED". DCA have been working on them.

There are things going on that not everyone may be aware of, but the work is being undertook for very good reasons.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

 

[dunc]

The lad I was with had heard that someone has indeed been going around and targeting 'classic' squeezes.

Let's hope the perpetrator is targeted before any more damage is caused!! Not a Peak regular, more an occasional tourist, would be a shame if everything became overly 'easy'. 

Can't see what can be done even if we find out who it is except ask them not to. Maybe the club committee could raise the issue if the person responsible is a club member

I'm sure they can be asked quite "firmly" if asking them nicely doesn't work...

Kick them out of the club and/or BCA (wouldn't make any difference, they could still go caving and inflict damage) so other measures would obviously have to be taken..


There have been a fair number of examples of this kind of damage over the years, with a variety of reasons given for undertaking it. I can only relate to one (that I've seen changed in my short number of caving years) in Ingleborough Cave, a very brief squeeze that I had done on my first visit was completely obliterated by the time I paid a second visit, an intensely disappointing experience.


There is no argument for it, some people can fit, some can't, get over it. I know full well there are certain places I'll never visit, I accept that and would not go around destroying caves just so I could be a selfish bastard..

 

[bograt]

I really f**cking hope that is just a rumour! How long is it since you heard that rumour bograt?

Has anyone been down recently who can verify one way or the other?

Thats exactly why I asked, Is this such a rarely visited classic?
(I must admit I have only challenged it 3 times, many years ago)

 

[JB]

Ropes are being left in caves where there is no sign of diggers or divers

Interestingly someone had left ropes on the down stream pitches of Winnats Head - seems like a really odd place to leave ropes.

I think you will find that it might be to do with this:- "Winnats Head Downstream Pitches Anchors - UPDATED". DCA have been working on them.

Hey Mel, can see why you've got confused here but it was me and SamT that recently re-bolted the upstream pitches in Winnats Head and these ropes (nothing to do with us) were in-situ on the downstream pitches throughout. The downstream pitches were equipped with eco anchors years ago and we didn't go down there during the recent work in the cave. I've confused you because recently I've re-drawn the topo for the downstream pitches and emailed it to you. In fact these ropes belong to a Daniel Lay (I spoke to him some time ago but have since lost his number). If someone could PM me his number I'll ring him again and see about getting them out.

Jules.

 

[martinm]

but drilling away/capping etc established 'classic' squeezes, that once altered cannot be re-instated is a hugely selfish act and by all accounts, there seems to be one perpetrator acting outside the normal caving circles and ethics.

This needs putting in context:-

I can't comment on Youd's, etc. Yoga Hole (Dr. Jackson's, presumably) I have been through it though to the end, it was a hard trip with all the tackle.

I know not many of you go down Darfar Pot (I haven't been down for 2 years cos of the weather, sigh) or Ladyside Pot, but in the 1990's 'we' enlarged the really tight vertical section in Ladyside just before climb down into the main passage. It was then passable by normal sized people, not just Ferrets. (The cave was originally entered  in the 1970's by the OCC! Kango, etc.) But I had to personally rescue one person from it who wasn't physically able to get out on his own. He climbed out on my shoulders, that was hard work!

The squeeze into Darfar 2 from Glory Chamber will be enlarged by me as soon as I can get down there again, hopefully in the next few weeks. It's awkward, the cave is 175ft deep and can fill to the roof (river level) in 20 minutes if a big flood pulse comes down the valley, I've seen it happen!    Trust me you want to be able to get out of there asap. That squeeze is 'unnecessary'. That squeeze was first passed by me in 1983, I believe, and originally it was desperate. It has since been enlarged a bit by me, but needs a bit more  'altering'. There are one or two others that also need 'altering'. There is a lot of high-level stuff I still need to survey after all these years. (Other things to do, don't ya know.)

Many caves have been enlarged by cavers to gain access or to extend the cave. (Most of the ones in the Manifold.) I am sure in other areas too, so don't carried away by this.

The amount of time a squeeze has been there does not affect the fact that someone might think it needs making a bit easier. They might be a bit bigger than you. And remember that they might have a dig beyond that squeeze and having to cart digging equipment though as well!

I was so skinny in the early 80's I could get through virtually anything, but these days I sometimes need a bit of 'assistance'. As long as it doesn't damage any features of scientific interest being monitoring by NE (us) or whoever, then so be it.

Remember, Owl Hole (Crystal Pallace, a lovely chamber) extensions was only got into by capping a few years ago.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer. (I won't ever alter things more than necessary, honest.)

 

[martinm]

Ropes are being left in caves where there is no sign of diggers or divers

Interestingly someone had left ropes on the down stream pitches of Winnats Head - seems like a really odd place to leave ropes.

I think you will find that it might be to do with this:- "Winnats Head Downstream Pitches Anchors - UPDATED". DCA have been working on them.

Hey Mel, can see why you've got confused here but it was me and SamT that recently re-bolted the upstream pitches in Winnats Head and these ropes (nothing to do with us) were in-situ on the downstream pitches throughout. The downstream pitches were equipped with eco anchors years ago and we didn't go down there during the recent work in the cave. I've confused you because recently I've re-drawn the topo for the downstream pitches and emailed it to you. In fact these ropes belong to a Daniel Lay (I spoke to him some time ago but have since lost his number). If someone could PM me his number I'll ring him again and see about getting them out.

Jules.

Yeah got it Jules. Will put it on the DCA web site on Wednesday. Am up Peak digging (and possibly doing more water tracing tmrw.) 

 

[JB]

Ropes are being left in caves where there is no sign of diggers or divers

Interestingly someone had left ropes on the down stream pitches of Winnats Head - seems like a really odd place to leave ropes.

I think you will find that it might be to do with this:- "Winnats Head Downstream Pitches Anchors - UPDATED". DCA have been working on them.

Hey Mel, can see why you've got confused here but it was me and SamT that recently re-bolted the upstream pitches in Winnats Head and these ropes (nothing to do with us) were in-situ on the downstream pitches throughout. The downstream pitches were equipped with eco anchors years ago and we didn't go down there during the recent work in the cave. I've confused you because recently I've re-drawn the topo for the downstream pitches and emailed it to you. In fact these ropes belong to a Daniel Lay (I spoke to him some time ago but have since lost his number). If someone could PM me his number I'll ring him again and see about getting them out.

Jules.

Yeah got it Jules. Will put it on the DCA web site on Wednesday. Am up Peak digging (and possibly doing more water tracing tmrw.) 

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Obvious troll is obvious?


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I assume chocolate fireguard is trolling.

Trolling.

In my day it might have been called "gently taking the piss out of people who are starting to go off on one".

Now it seems that if the post isn`t marked with a =) or one of those silly smiley faces used by people who struggle to spell =) then it`s trolling.

I have read the 2 and a bit pages of this post and can`t see any evidence that anybody has done anything wrong (like damaging natural cave passage).

Come on you lot, get a grip.

 

[cavermark]

The amount of time a squeeze has been there does not affect the fact that someone might think it needs making a bit easier. They might be a bit bigger than you. And remember that they might have a dig beyond that squeeze and having to cart digging equipment though as well!

DISAGREE- The squeezes being discussed such as Winnats Head and Meccano Passage have been that size for many years.  I am "a bit bigger than you"  - if I can't get through something I will go elsewhere.

If getting digging gear through a squeeze is awkward then I'll man up and deal with it, or find a different dig.

Enlarging passage in a dig at the time of digging is fine - Enlarging a long standing squeeze is not.

 

[dunc]

but drilling away/capping etc established 'classic' squeezes, that once altered cannot be re-instated is a hugely selfish act and by all accounts, there seems to be one perpetrator acting outside the normal caving circles and ethics.

This needs putting in context:-

The amount of time a squeeze has been there does not affect the fact that someone might think it needs making a bit easier. They might be a bit bigger than you. And remember that they might have a dig beyond that squeeze and having to cart digging equipment though as well!

Oh well, carte blanche then..
Dales based examples, as that what I'm familiar with:
Let's destroy every narrow section in Pippikin, Peterson, Quaking, Marble, Car, Strans, Langstroth.. And why not, just for the hell of it, destroy the Cheese Press in Long Churn because some people can't get through it. Conservation officer when it suits springs to mind.

If diggers aren't capable of passing awkward sections they should find alternative places to dig, end of!

Trolling.

In my day it might have been called "gently taking the piss out of people who are starting to go off on one".

Now it seems that if the post isn`t marked with a =) or one of those silly smiley faces used by people who struggle to spell =) then it`s trolling.

I have read the 2 and a bit pages of this post and can`t see any evidence that anybody has done anything wrong (like damaging natural cave passage).

Come on you lot, get a grip.

Because people who don't know you can tell what you mean by a faceless post on a forum. Not.
So what if it needs marking with a wink or a grin or whatever, this is modern life. If you can't handle that don't indulge in it, get a grip as some say.......

There is possible evidence of natural restrictions being modified, which is worrying. I'd like to believe that information is wrong and this hasn't happened.

 

[ah147]

The squeeze into Darfar 2 from Glory Chamber will be enlarged by me as soon as I can get down there again, hopefully in the next few weeks. It's awkward, the cave is 175ft deep and can fill to the roof (river level) in 20 minutes if a big flood pulse comes down the valley, I've seen it happen!    Trust me you want to be able to get out of there asap. That squeeze is 'unnecessary'. That squeeze was first passed by me in 1983, I believe, and originally it was desperate. It has since been enlarged a bit by me, but needs a bit more  'altering'. There are one or two others that also need 'altering'. There is a lot of high-level stuff I still need to survey after all these years. (Other things to do, don't ya know.)

This just about seems fair enough in the interests of safety.

Many caves have been enlarged by cavers to gain access or to extend the cave. (Most of the ones in the Manifold.) I am sure in other areas too, so don't carried away by this.

These aren't original digging trips/exploration or very soon after. These are classic routes and the squeezes in them well known. As a newer caver I go down these looking forward to the squeezes in a perverse way, looking to test myself, as I'm sure many others do, to have that taken away from me.

The amount of time a squeeze has been there does not affect the fact that someone might think it needs making a bit easier. They might be a bit bigger than you. And remember that they might have a dig beyond that squeeze and having to cart digging equipment though as well!

I was so skinny in the early 80's I could get through virtually anything, but these days I sometimes need a bit of 'assistance'. As long as it doesn't damage any features of scientific interest being monitoring by NE (us) or whoever, then so be it.

So anything I deem to require making easier is fair game? And anything your require making easier is fair game? I have a rather large 19 stone work colleague, he wants to cave but is worried about tight bits, can I now tell him he can come along as long as he brings some caps, a drill, hammer and chisel? The view you're supporting here will leave entire caves without squeezes which are a quintessential part of the sport in my, and many others opinion!

That said, the digging equipment argument is kind of fair game but in my experience tends to be done a bit more discreetly. Instead of Gentlewomans to Youds which used to be a flat out squeeze in water and is now on your hands and knees, and Meccano squeeze which had to be done without SRT gear on your back, and you can now get through almost on your knees with your SRT gear on.

Remember, Owl Hole (Crystal Pallace, a lovely chamber) extensions was only got into by capping a few years ago.

I don't think there's a single post on here objecting to enlargement of passage during original exploration. Just objection to enlargement of established passage/squeezes.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer. (I won't ever alter things more than necessary, honest.)

Does this mean that your post is the official standing of the DCA? Or is this just your attempt to make your post seem more authoritative? If it's the former I'm extremely disappointed.

Peak cavers on this thread, on the most part, are rather upset by the enlargement of these established passages. For a body that claims to represent peak district cavers to be taking the view of the minority is rather counter productive and very disappointing. Especially how when others are constantly moaning about CNCC or CCC I'm rather proud of all the hassle free caving I get to do thanks to brilliant work by the DCA.

Trolling.

In my day it might have been called "gently taking the piss out of people who are starting to go off on one".

Now it seems that if the post isn`t marked with a =) or one of those silly smiley faces used by people who struggle to spell =) then it`s trolling.

I have read the 2 and a bit pages of this post and can`t see any evidence that anybody has done anything wrong (like damaging natural cave passage).

Come on you lot, get a grip.

Taken in good faith mate. I nearly bit and went off until I thought "hmm, something seems a little funny here". Trolling is legitimate sport in my opinion!

That said, the subject of the thread is something I'm obviously emotive about. I haven't seen what's been done in Winnats, just Meccano and Youds level. I appreciate its mined passage and not natural cave being altered. Its the removal of a part of the mine for the benefit of few to the detriment of many that most of us, myself included, disagree with.

I know we all moan about tight passages, but I'd say most, if not all, of us actually gain perverse pleasure from it!

 

[martinm]

Yes, well I expected that sort of response. You try helping a 15 stone caver out of a cave on ya shoulders. I had bruises for days, but I got him out. Now it's much easier. If  I had had to leave him down there, DCRO would have been called out and access might have been affected. ATM, it's completely open. 

I am not advocating enlarging every squeeze every where, (or what appears to be being done by someone in the Peak), I'm just saying, judge everything separately, not just how long it's been there.

For  the person above suggesting that the Cheesepress be enlarged. How effing ridiculous, there is a big stream passage round it, no dig beyond it, (even Kate Humble got through it), it is a ludicrous addition to this thread. Get an effing grip.

Many 'digs' in my area (which you obviously know nowt of) have been ongoing for years off and on cos of lack of personnel, so it doesn't matter how long they've been known. The original entrance to Darfar Pot could be pretty desperate.  We created the top entrance, (via a natural cave), so people wouldn't get drowned trying to get out if a flood pulse hit. 

Remember Mossdale Caverns?

I am not speaking on behalf of DCA, btw. Just my own opinion.

I look after dozens of caves in my area for the National Trust. Making sure they're not trashed, as one was a few years ago by an irresponsible cave digger, uncovering several human remains which cost the NT about ?8K to sort out.

So don't say I'm only a conservation officer when it suits me.  :thumbsdown: (Insert swear word here!)

 

[dunc]

For  the person above suggesting that the Cheesepress be enlarged. How effing ridiculous, there is a big stream passage round it, no dig beyond it, (even Kate Humble got through it), it is a ludicrous addition to this thread. Get an effing grip.

Just like your suggestion that destroying a long standing squeeze to suit your own ends is fucking ludicrous, look at the thread yourself and get a fucking grip!

Many 'digs' in my area (which you obviously know nowt of) have been ongoing for years off and on cos of lack of personnel, so it doesn't matter how long they've been known. The original entrance to Darfar Pot could be pretty desperate.  We created the top entrance, (via a natural cave), so people wouldn't get drowned trying to get out if a flood pulse hit. 

Remember Mossdale Caverns?

No, I wasn't born but I know the story. So the weather is now being used as an excuse for destroying sections of cave? I can think of plenty of caves I haven't been to because the weather has prevented me from doing so, I don't find myself inclined to modify things just in case of accident or me taking a chance with the weather.