SRT - Decending - Stop Decender Positioning.

[darkplaces]

New to SRT, got a new sit harness, been using a climbing harness mostly. Did a bit of a shaft on the weekend and was 'troubled' by the amount I was leaning back, didnt feel right. Everything was connected ok and I keep seeing people sitting upright pop up and down all happy.

Now I think its due to me being short or I just need to grip the decender and pull myself upright more, maybe a higher position for the decender.

So I was thinking, What if I attach the Stop Decender to the top of the chest acender (which is connected directly to the malion) with a karabena, it means the decender is higher and my tape holding the chest acender helps pull me up.

1. Is this a stupid/silly/dangerous idea and I should bin it?
2. Is this ok, just a bit odd but just another way of using the equipment?
3. Any downsides/upsides?
4. Anyone doing this already?
5. The chest acender wont break will it?

I used this idea with a clip in the hole for going down some ladders on the weekend, as just something to slow my fall if I fell off. Felt alright.

Any ideas people, you lot seam to be flying up and down shafts and I wanted some advise please.

The little short dumpy one in the corner, knawing on the rope.

 

[SamT]

Its certainly not a technique Ive seen used or recommended. Sounds a bit unorthodox and I would avoid it if possible.

I dont know of anyone who suffers from leaning back too much whilst using a stop - where you wearing a bag on your back perhaps - if so - attach it to a cord and clip it to the bottom of your mallion so it hangs free below you. (but not too far away so you cant kick it free if it becomes wedged)

You should be able to use your left hand thats gripping the red handle to hold yourself upright.

I assume your already using an oval screwgate krab to attach your stop to your mallion (and that your stop is not directly attached to your mallion).

Rather than develop your own techniques - I'd persist with and get used to the prescribed, tried and tested methods because as you get more experienced - you'll see that there are reasons that things are done the way they are (rescue situations/advanced rigging/hauling etc etc etc) and variations from the norm could present difficulities at the later stage.

I used this idea with a clip in the hole for going down some ladders on the weekend, as just something to slow my fall if I fell off. Felt alright

not quite sure what you mean by that. Ladders should either be belayed by the classic ladder and lifeline technique or self protected using a static line with a device such as a shunt or mini traxion

 

[paul]

Which harness are you using? Is it adjusted properly? Do you also tend to flip over backwards when clipped to a loaded cowstail? Sounds like the position of the central maillon on your harness is a bit low.

I wouldn't recommend clipping anything to the top hole which loads the jammer longtitudinally (i.e. a pull from either end of the jammer) as they are designed to take a load downwards (even when clipping a krab through the top two holes on Petzl jammers).

When using an SRT harness with lifelines (as opposed to SRT) on ladders it is recommended to clip the maillon on the harness to a load-bearing belt with a karabiner and tie into that karabiner to prevent accidentally flipping over and falling out of the harness. Perhaps you could try that and attach your Stop to the karabiner linking harness maillon and belt?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Remember that to be an entirely safe and self-sufficient SRT user you must be able to change from abseil to prusik and back again while mid-rope. I suggest you practice this and see how easy it is using your configuration - or even if it is possible!

 

[paul]

Ladders should either be belayed by the classic ladder and lifeline technique or self protected using a static line with a device such as a shunt or mini traxion

True, you can us a jamming device to protect yourself on ladders. BUT - if the ladder (or its belay) fails (and I have heard of that happening twice in the last twleve months), then you end up suspended on a rope and unless you have a descender or the means of prusiking up (unlikely otherwise you wouldn't be using a ladder ;-) ) you're stuck there.

At least with a lifeline you could be lowered back down the pitch.

 

[darkplaces]

I use an oval screwgate krab to connect the mallion and stop.
I didnt have a bag on my back, did have an FX5 though....
I shall look into a 'shunt or mini traxion' the ladder configuration means lifelines get trapped.

I havent tried a loaded cowstail... On My TODO when not far from the ground....

My harness is a Petzl Fractio Harness;
http://w01-0504.web.dircon.net/acatalog/Main_Menu_Petzl_Fractio_1064.html

I'v got a dragon 'caving' belt I think I'll try that krab/belt/malion setup.
I wont be using the 'stop-on-chest-acender' idea again

I'm rather worried now as from the sounds of it the issue could be the way the harness is adjusted, acending feels ok.

Sooo much to learn... Thanks everyone.

 

[darkplaces]

Remember that to be an entirely safe and self-sufficient SRT user you must be able to change from abseil to prusik and back again while mid-rope. I suggest you practice this and see how easy it is using your configuration - or even if it is possible!

I'v done up-changed over-then down. Not down then up yet. I dont think 'ill be trying with my weardo idea. Thanks.

On the Stop Decender, you know the hole the other side of the lever. I read thats used to convert the stop to a stop simple to keep the lever in so decent is controled all my holding the rope. I used this method to decend the fixed (sorry didnt say that did I) ladders down, the weight of the rope and it being 11m and muddy' made even going down hard, I thought this was better then nothing, if I fell off I would not plumet and might have time to grab the rope. Not perfect but to me better then nothing.

If I'm taking one peace of rope equipment it all goes with me, up or down so as long as I'm attached to the rope I can go up or down.

 

[Dave H]

Won't your clubmates help you with a bit of training?

 

[Mine Explorer]

On the Stop Decender, you know the hole the other side of the lever. I read thats used to convert the stop to a stop simple to keep the lever in so decent is controled all my holding the rope.

I've only tried it a couple of times - found it useless. The rope (11mm) was restricted between the krab and the bobbin of the stop, the added friction made the going very tough.

I quite like the Petzl 'Simple' though not sure how I'd get on with a large free-hanging pitch. Currently having a play with the rack again - lots of speed control available and gives a free hand for fending off obstacles.

 

[darkplaces]

Mine Explorer, you'v done carrock? I was using the 'converted stop simple' of mine comeing down the far end mostly metal ladders. Anyone else done them?

Maybe this little feature of the stop is a handy one just for that, yes very hard going but made me feel better on wibbly wobbly not so fixed ridgid ladders that dont always meet in the middle.

Won't your clubmates help you with a bit of training?

relativly new to the club and I might have got lost getting to split rock to meet up for some training....

Currently having a play with the rack again - lots of speed control available and gives a free hand for fending off obstacles.

Like Attack Badgers?
(lol sorry could not resist)

 

[hrock]

converting a stop in to a simpel is ok but i find that on mose ropes i still have to holed the handle.

even when the stop is not crabed you should control disent entierly with the rope (the hand shoud be off or on and not half way) this is to maximise contole and to minimis rope were.

 

[Mine Explorer]

Mine Explorer, you'v done carrock?

Have to confess not one I've heard of - any clues as to where it is?
(If you haven't guessed, no I haven't been there!)

Like Attack Badgers?

Must admit I was thinking of rotten ladder stagings, loose rails and misc. other hazards encountered on a 'memorable' SRT pitch not long ago! (Not to mention the classic squeeze through a tight hole with a stop until you reach the position where your left hand can no longer reach the handle to squeeze it in, whilst the rest of your body is only just one stage off getting wedged in the hole you're dropping through - cue $%&7# ripe language!)

 

[Jagman]

Carrock is in the North Lakes area, 4 level hard rock mine with many of the ladderways and false floors still intact.
Only closed in 1982 so relatively recent, timberwork is deteriorating quite quickly now and the enterance silting up due to restricted drainage. Another year or so and the ladderways will not be do-able, the dreaded mineral collectors are also causing considerable damage- in th last few months they have destroyed a wooden hopper in the tramway which has raised the water level 18inches behind it, the ladder staging is becoming to
wet for the nails to hold anymore. Consequently some of the ladders are not attatched by much, hence the safety line.
If you wanna do it 9and its really worth it!) it would need to be soon.
Feel free to PM for location details etc.

 

[Mole]

Some pics of Carrock here,but you need to register to see them :-

http://www.c**tplaces.co.uk/phpBB2/album_cat.php?cat_id=159

 

[cavespen]

i come from a climbing back ground and then got in to caving as such i learn to absail on a fig of 8 locking of by bringing the rope behind my lower back. i cave with a stop and still do this. all my friends cave absail on stops with braking carbs and i think it looks everso orcward and slow.
any thought on what people out there prefer.

 

[Mole]

I learnt to abseil using the "classic" method,could be painful to say the least !
Then we went on to using a sling which you put behind you,pulling a loop each side of you around the waist,and a loop between your legs,and then joining them all with a crab.
The rope was clipped into the crab and then over your left shoulder,and gripped by your right hand,by which you controlled the speed of descent.

Later we started using Pierre Allain Descendeurs,they were handy as you could wrap the slack end of the rope around them to lock off,but wet and gritty ropes meant they wore quickly.

 

[Rachel]

(Not to mention the classic squeeze through a tight hole with a stop until you reach the position where your left hand can no longer reach the handle to squeeze it in,

In that situation, have you tried putting your stop on the end of your short cowstail, so the red handle is right in front of your nose?

i learn to absail on a fig of 8 locking of by bringing the rope behind my lower back. i cave with a stop and still do this

Strange, I was taught to abseil this way, with a braking krab on the d ring and holding the downgoing rope up in the air, effectively pulling it up against the krab. It works, but it's really uncomfortable and looks pretty stupid as well. Now I brake by holding the rope against my right leg and that's a million times easier. I also run the rope through a krab attached to the gear loop on the side of my harness. This doesn't perform any function at all when abseiling normally, but I'm told (I've never tested this and never intend to) that if someone were to let go of the rope with the handle in and start to plummet, with a stop on it's own, the rope would thrash about and be impossible to grab back hold of. However, with the rope running through a krab on the gear loop, that gives a few inches of rope between the stop and the krab where an unlucky sod might, just might, have a chance of regrabbing the rope. Like I said, how true this is I have no idea, but having the krab there makes me feel better even if it does nothing else. (I'm one of those paranoid people who don't let go of the rope even if I'm locked off and 3 feet above the ground).

 

[cap n chris]

I'm one of those paranoid people who don't let go of the rope even if I'm locked off and 3 feet above the ground

You WILL live long and prosper.

 

[hrock]

the stop is rated for use with one person with out a bracking crab. but for biger lodes (eg rescue) you are suppos to use adishanal friction. but i find alot of this dipends on the rope and how wet it is not to mention how worn the stop is. thick dry rope in a new stop and you wont move wet 9mm in an old one and i would not fancey it with out a bracking crab.

but i would rather use a rack (dispite the fact that the stop is more veritile)

 

[danthecavingman]

I have always caved with a rack, I find them much more friendly than a stop. Combined with a shunt on my long cowstail it is a good combination. The shunt means I can rig exposed pitch heads without worrying about the rack unlocking itself. As an access technician I have used stops for work for many years. They are fine on worn in new ropes. I had problems with a stop on brand new ropes (too fast) and on wet ropes where they seem to respond unpredictably. Go nowhere, feed some rope through and suddenly drop several metres in virtual free fall then stop again. Very bouncy and unpleasant.