D
diggerdog adam
Guest
I Can see where your coming from on that one but the only time where i would use a snap gate with in my rigging would be on a deviation and that would be at a push.
You have no controll what so ever on what a snap gate is doing when your half walf up/down a pitch. Please always use a kite marked malion or srewgate style krab AFTER ALL THAT IS WHAT THERE MADE FOR !
NEVER A SNAP KRAB
Another good tip is to thred the screw gate from the under side of the hanger so the screw bit faces away from the wall/rock
paul
Moderator
Getwet said:
It's better to have no chance of the rope coming out with a screwgate/maillon than little chance with a snap link.
Quite often the rope loops can be moving around as you get off and on at a pitch head and it isn't impossible for one side of a loop to press against a krab gate cross-wise, open it and allow the rope loop to slip out.
SamT
Moderator
Im with pisshead on this one - absolutly no need for screwgates on deviations. Just causes people to struggle and take longer - perfect would be a nice bent gate for ease of unclipping & re - clipping. depends on the place - but always on a short sling or extender - never straight into the bolt - can be a right pain to unclip/reclip.
M
Mine Explorer
Guest
SamT said:
Oh yes, I forgot that one! Snap-krabs are an absolute must for me on deviations, unfortunately we generally only have screw-gates to hand when we're rigging
Definitely snapgates on deviatons.. Too much faff with screwgates for my liking and to be honest I can't see what benefit it would make having a screwgate?
I would always use either screwgates or maillons for rigging. Although I can see your point about it being ok when loaded, as Paul said when getting on and off pitch it could be a potential problem.
If you are buying krabs anyway you may aswell get screwgates - cost won't really come into it and it's not like it takes forever to screw one up. Using snapgates would gain you a few seconds per pitch - hardly worth it for the potential compromise on safety...
Cave_Troll
Active member
tell that to the person i once saw soloing Penyghent on snaps
eek! :shock:
eek! :shock:
T
Titch98
Guest
At the end of the day, there are two factors with regards the choice of Krabs for cowstails:
1) What you feel safe and confident with
2) And a main factor, I believe, is what you were taught/ shown by a fellow Caver/ Instructor
I have always used Snaps on my Cowstails because that is what I was taught many moons ago by my Instructor and in all my years of Caving, have never had any problems with that set-up. I am confident with and trust my 'tails 100%.
As already mentioned in other posts, screwgates are a must for rigging and I also agree with snaps for Deviations. However, I only use snaps on the active rope and the krab that anchors in, unless a natural anchor point is used, is always a srewgate.
1) What you feel safe and confident with
2) And a main factor, I believe, is what you were taught/ shown by a fellow Caver/ Instructor
I have always used Snaps on my Cowstails because that is what I was taught many moons ago by my Instructor and in all my years of Caving, have never had any problems with that set-up. I am confident with and trust my 'tails 100%.
As already mentioned in other posts, screwgates are a must for rigging and I also agree with snaps for Deviations. However, I only use snaps on the active rope and the krab that anchors in, unless a natural anchor point is used, is always a srewgate.
D
diggerdog adam
Guest
Sorry i didnt make my self very clear in my post about snaps on devations Screwgates in to the hanger and a snapgate on the rope
( I would be happy at a push to use a snap through the hanger as the chances of it coming un snaped are pritty slim and its not like its not backed up) but like i said At a push!
( I would be happy at a push to use a snap through the hanger as the chances of it coming un snaped are pritty slim and its not like its not backed up) but like i said At a push!
T
tubby two
Guest
Now i know this is a month old topic not (not been on the net for a while) but petzl vertigos are excellent. Bit more cash (£7ea. i think) but they are designed for via ferrata and are excellent for caving too, very wide mouth, auto-lock that dosenr clog with grit like twistlocks do and nice and big to clip.. well, lots. use 'em, love 'em.
tt.
tt.
T
tubby two
Guest
Yeah, thats them. admittedly that pic looks like you could climb through them, but the extra size has never caused a problem.
tt.
tt.
Snaplinks or Screwgates - I think its down to personal choice.
However people need to remember that screwgate krabs are not fool proof. The best advice is to always check that everything is nice and neat in the hanger/bolt/rope etc. Then if you do fall the load should be applied in a way the krab is designed to take.
There have been several failures of alloy screwgate krabs when the gate was cross loaded. The locking sleeve was notched effectively turning them into snap links. In at least 2 cases these failures were fatal for the people concerned.
Personally, I don't think a screwgate krab (or at least an alloy one) would save you, in a fall on a P bolt, if it was loaded across the gate as per the illustration in the CNCC rigging guides.
A summary of a BMC report covering a similar failure when an alloy screwgate krab was loaded across the gate, by the lower hole in a Fig 8 descender, is available at
West Brecon CRT - Way Out Issue 4
In one case a failure in testing occured with a force of only 0.7Kn!
However people need to remember that screwgate krabs are not fool proof. The best advice is to always check that everything is nice and neat in the hanger/bolt/rope etc. Then if you do fall the load should be applied in a way the krab is designed to take.
There have been several failures of alloy screwgate krabs when the gate was cross loaded. The locking sleeve was notched effectively turning them into snap links. In at least 2 cases these failures were fatal for the people concerned.
Personally, I don't think a screwgate krab (or at least an alloy one) would save you, in a fall on a P bolt, if it was loaded across the gate as per the illustration in the CNCC rigging guides.
A summary of a BMC report covering a similar failure when an alloy screwgate krab was loaded across the gate, by the lower hole in a Fig 8 descender, is available at
West Brecon CRT - Way Out Issue 4
In one case a failure in testing occured with a force of only 0.7Kn!
Personally, I'm with Paul on this one regarding cowstails - screwgate (fairly wide opening) on the long, and snaplink on the short.
I hardly ever screw up the long cowstail, but a screwgate can be handy on occasion - if at any risk of dozing off in a nice pitchhead stance waiting for someone to rig or ascend, I do find being able to be securely attached to a traverse line or bolt rather comforting, and if using the coswtail to drag gear though a tight passage, it can be useful to make sure it can't acidentally come undone.
A screwgate on a short cowstail is at risk of screwing itself up at the most inopportune times, like when attempting to remove it from the knot-loop when passing ad awkward rebelay. My first short cowstail used a screwgate, but not for long.
Using two decidedly different krabs also makes it even easier to select the right cowstail by feel alone when you're in an awkward position.
I tend to rig with maillons anyway, but would certainly avoid snaplinks for anything loadbearing unless I had no alternative, and even then, I'd ensure they were somewhere where their failure would still leave the rope safe, and accidental opening during manouvres would be unlikely. And then take extra care.
For deviations, I'd avoid screwgates like the plague unless the deviation was a very simple one that didn't involve any strength or dynamic manouvres to pass, and/or the gate could be screwed open tightly enough that it was effectively a snaplink.
I hardly ever screw up the long cowstail, but a screwgate can be handy on occasion - if at any risk of dozing off in a nice pitchhead stance waiting for someone to rig or ascend, I do find being able to be securely attached to a traverse line or bolt rather comforting, and if using the coswtail to drag gear though a tight passage, it can be useful to make sure it can't acidentally come undone.
A screwgate on a short cowstail is at risk of screwing itself up at the most inopportune times, like when attempting to remove it from the knot-loop when passing ad awkward rebelay. My first short cowstail used a screwgate, but not for long.
Using two decidedly different krabs also makes it even easier to select the right cowstail by feel alone when you're in an awkward position.
I tend to rig with maillons anyway, but would certainly avoid snaplinks for anything loadbearing unless I had no alternative, and even then, I'd ensure they were somewhere where their failure would still leave the rope safe, and accidental opening during manouvres would be unlikely. And then take extra care.
For deviations, I'd avoid screwgates like the plague unless the deviation was a very simple one that didn't involve any strength or dynamic manouvres to pass, and/or the gate could be screwed open tightly enough that it was effectively a snaplink.
I use these on both my long and short cowstails - the one at the front with the little green button.
Most of the time they act as snapgates but if you want to you can give the sleeve a twist and hey presto its well and truely locked!! Its great having the versatility.
The only problem I can think of is when they get muddy but this has happened only once (I mean it's only once been a problem not that they've only got muddy once!! :wink: ) and a good swill out in clean water soon sorted the problem. It's not like a standard twistlock when theres a spring inside to get clogged up.
Well I think they are good anyway!
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&pays=0&Langue=en&Activite=0&Famille=21&SousFamille=68&Produit=336&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=
Most of the time they act as snapgates but if you want to you can give the sleeve a twist and hey presto its well and truely locked!! Its great having the versatility.
The only problem I can think of is when they get muddy but this has happened only once (I mean it's only once been a problem not that they've only got muddy once!! :wink: ) and a good swill out in clean water soon sorted the problem. It's not like a standard twistlock when theres a spring inside to get clogged up.
Well I think they are good anyway!
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&pays=0&Langue=en&Activite=0&Famille=21&SousFamille=68&Produit=336&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=
