SRT teaching, descending - stop or simple?

[Mark Wright]

... I would only recommend a novice to purchase a Stop or a Rig as these provide protection against unforeseen circumstances unless additional protection equipment is used (Shunt or French Prussik). They can also be used as improvised ascenders or as part of a hauling system.

I'd be interested to know how you would recommend the Shunt or French Prussik to be attached to the harness and used on the rope as additional protection.


The new Rig is rated for 9mm - 11.5mm, the current one is 10.5mm - 11.5mm. Simples and Stops are rated for 9mm - 12mm.

The rated rope diameters can be a little confusing. If the device conforms to, e.g. EN341A or EN12841C, then the rope diameters marked on the product are the rope diameters that were used during the testing to those standards. It doesn't mean you can't use smaller or larger diameter ropes, its just that the device may perform differently, e.g. the auto lock function on a Stop might not work as effectively if you use an 8mm accessory cord. 

EN 341A is a rescue descender standard so is rated to be used on rope conforming to the EN1891B lightweight rescue rope standard which is typically 9mm.

Mark

 

[Hammy]

I'd be interested to know how you would recommend the Shunt or French Prussik to be attached to the harness and used on the rope as additional protection.

Libby Peter does a better job of describing use of a French Prussik here than I would by any wordy description

https://youtu.be/OodydJiaXUo

The French Prussik could potentially be installed above the belay device too.

Although I own a Shunt I have only used it occasionally for self top roping rock climbs, and for that purpose prefer to use a Petzl Basic. I'm sure you will roll your eyes at that admission, but it's strictly for personal climbing, definitely not in any teaching capacity!

 

[andrewmcleod]

I should add another point about the Rig regarding rope diameters. The current version is rated for 10.5mm to 11.5mm which is a bit limiting.

My Rig is much more reliable than 9mm rope than my Stop, despite the Stop being rated for it and the Rig not. Never seen the Rig slip at all...

 

[andrewmcleod]

Andrew, I feel like you have a misunderstanding of what a clutch and plummet is.

I don't think I explained myself very well, but I never said that people who clutch and plummeted with a Stop would do the same with a Simple (since obviously they wouldn't) - just that they could still do the 'plummet' part. If we are talking about people who have just grabbed the handle at the top and fallen, then yes that is a lot less likely with a Simple. If we are talking about people losing control, panicking and grabbing the handle and plummeting then we are talking about people who have lost control descending, and might very well make a hash of abseiling with a Simple as well...

And yes, leaving a long cowstail clipped in until you are underway and have tested everything should be standard practice no matter how experienced you are.

 

[mikem]

But would you give someone else a Rig for abseiling on a 9mm rope? Also, how worn is the stop compared to the rig - did you try them on the same rope? (some 9mm feed through my stop whilst others don't)

Putting a French prussik above the abseil device is not a good idea for a beginner as it means they don't need to hold the bottom rope & could (I know it's unlikely) put both hands above the device on the prussik, creating a clutch & plummet...

A basic is fine for self belaying AS LONG AS IT IS NOT SHOCK LOADED, so make sure that it is moving up the rope as you do, at least a jammer will not slide down the rope if you grab hold of it! Even when they are shock loaded I am not aware of a rope having been cut right through, although the sheath is likely to be damaged (& if the rope is running over an edge above you that could cut through).

Mike

 

[Hammy]

And yes, leaving a long cowstail clipped in until you are underway and have tested everything should be standard practice no matter how experienced you are.

This is what I mean by pitch head procedures in my post above. All part of standard instructional practice. Function testing each and every time is of critical importance.

 

[Hammy]

But would you give someone else a Rig for abseiling on a 9mm rope? Also, how worn is the stop compared to the rig - did you try them on the same rope? (some 9mm feed through my stop whilst others don't)

Putting a French prussik above the abseil device is not a good idea for a beginner as it means they don't need to hold the bottom rope & could (I know it's unlikely) put both hands above the device on the prussik, creating a clutch & plummet...

A basic is fine for self belaying AS LONG AS IT IS NOT SHOCK LOADED, so make sure that it is moving up the rope as you do, at least a jammer will not slide down the rope if you grab hold of it! Even when they are shock loaded I am not aware of a rope having been cut right through, although the sheath is likely to be damaged (& if the rope is running over an edge above you that could cut through).

Mike

My Rig is rock solid on Spelennium Gold 9.5 mm - it doesn't slip at all.

My Stop slips most of the time unless the rope is very well used. This is an issue with the Stop when teaching novices.

There are some applications when it is useful to have the French Prussik above the belay device applicable to rock climbing teaching situations, but the norm is to have it on the leg loop and below the belay device. These are not caving/mining situations and maybe I shouldn't have complicated the discussion by mentioning them.

In all the testing I have witnessed using toothed devices none have completely severed the rope, even severe falls, but most have stripped the sheath rather alarmingly!

 

[mikem]

I'm not sure there are any situations where they recommend having the prussik above the device whilst ABSEILING...

Mike

 

[Hammy]

I'm not sure there are any situations where they recommend having the prussik above the device whilst ABSEILING...

Mike

Sorry yes I should never have mentioned it as it is applicable to climbing rescues not abseiling!!

 

[mikem]

My Rig is rock solid on Spelennium Gold 9.5 mm - it doesn't slip at all.

My Stop slips most of the time unless the rope is very well used. This is an issue with the Stop when teaching novices.

Surely it's not an issue as you always teach them to hold the bottom rope & not rely on the self locking, or are you going to provide everyone with a rig?

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

A French perspective/training aid (not bad actually), perhaps useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIooXVvn6A

Personally have issues with several things in it, though, but that's another drawn out thread, reckon.

 

[Hammy]

My Rig is rock solid on Spelennium Gold 9.5 mm - it doesn't slip at all.

My Stop slips most of the time unless the rope is very well used. This is an issue with the Stop when teaching novices.

Surely it's not an issue as you always teach them to hold the bottom rope & not rely on the self locking, or are you going to provide everyone with a rig?

Mike

No not everybody gets a Rig! The issue is that you can explain until you are blue in the teeth that allowing the Stop to creep downwards is a bad thing and showing people how to hold the rope to stop this,  plus pulling outwards on the red handle, they still end up tight on their long cows tail with all the ensuing faff.

 

[mikem]

Saw a great quick fix recently where you clip a krab into the rebelay knot & put the tail up through it & pull on the rope, so you can shorten the rope through the descender & unload the cowstail...

Mike

 

[Hammy]

Saw a great quick fix recently where you clip a krab into the rebelay knot & put the tail up through it & pull on the rope, so you can shorten the rope through the descender & unload the cowstail...

Mike

Yep thats exactly the kind of avoidable faff I'm talking about...

 

[mikem]

It's a lot less faff than the alternative of switching to your ascenders!

Mike

 

[Hammy]

This guy doesn't faff too much...

https://youtu.be/Gw7KlO_DbjM

 

[Ian Ball]

Blimey!

 

[Ed]

I'd be interested to know how you would recommend the Shunt or French Prussik to be attached to the harness and used on the rope as additional protection.

Libby Peter does a better job of describing use of a French Prussik here than I would by any wordy description

https://youtu.be/OodydJiaXUo

The French Prussik could potentially be installed above the belay device too.

Although I own a Shunt I have only used it occasionally for self top roping rock climbs, and for that purpose prefer to use a Petzl Basic. I'm sure you will roll your eyes at that admission, but it's strictly for personal climbing, definitely not in any teaching capacity!

Standard these days is belay device/decender extended on a sling and french prussik from the belay loop below.

As advised by Petzl, BD and others