SRT teaching, descending - stop or simple?

[Simon Wilson]

At last, a discussion about descenders which is thoughtful and informed for a change.

My mother used to teach machine knitting and was often frustrated by students wanting to machine knit who didn't know how to hand knit. Someone using a Stop should already understand the basic principal that the device provides friction and that the amount of friction is controlled by tension on the live rope - Simples.

The widespread use of the Stop in caving is a peculiarly British thing and that has developed because of the self perpetuation of it's use. If people become accustomed to using the Stop they will almost inevitably never appreciate the many advantages of the Simple.

 

[Ian Ball]

Cap'n Chris, there's my lunchtime surfing sorted 

 

[alastairgott]

Cap'n Chris that's all well and good, but where's the topic on which way round a Rack should be.

Moose wears his "backwards" ie he feeds the rope in from the front. So when locking off, he must be locking off behind the rack.
I only ask cos it's different and therefore must be wrong!  :tease: :blink:

 

[nobrotson]

I appreciate Mark Wrights input as always on this kind of issue, and he is correct that although you may teach people to hold the tail end as a critical safety feature there are circumstances where the autolocking handle of a stop could save your life. When we are training students in SRT, we teach them in a climbing wall first and then progress to a cave after a couple of weeks (first few trips are non-SRT on ladders or simply with no pitches), doing simple up and down ropes such as those encountered in county pot and giants hole, then progressing to more complicated SRT such as Sell Gill, Lancaster Hole and Ireby Fell. In these caves (apart from a couple of places in Ireby and Sell Gill), the chances of a rockfall are reasonably low when on a rope, and though there are other ways you could conceivably be knocked out these are all also quite unlikely to happen I think. We do teach using both descenders because we aren't going to waste the stops we have, but we are moving towards getting more simples than stops for consistency but also for the financial reasons highlighted by MarkS.

The matter of actual training methods is a different one entirely. At Leeds, we teach a lot of people in high volume at the start of semesters as this is when there is the most interest, and ideally we want to maintain a healthy number of new cavers entering the club. A good way to socialise and get people to remain interested is to introduce them to SRT - it is a very novel part of caving for a lot of newcomers to the sport. We usually have about 8 or so different ropes rigged with a trainer at each one instructing. The experience of the trainers varies quite a lot, but they are all competent, safe SRT users who have been 'approved' to teach and given some instruction in how to teach SRT safely by older club members.

SUSS I know have a 'leader, equal, novice' system in place to ensure that some kind of standard is set. We have considered this, but we never implemented it as we felt it places too much reliance on older members of the club and stops new students from taking on the challenge of running it and keeping it alive. There are very good arguments for it though.

 

[Fulk]

These have been repeated trips into three project caves having four pits of 19, 42, 55, and 59 feet

Thank you, Kenilworth; off-topic, but I was curious as to how far you would be prepared to descend using a krab as a descender.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Half the reason this argument between Stops and Simples persists in spite of the obvious safety benefits of Stops is because Stops are rubbish - the handle is a terrible, terrible design that makes it hard work to use and half the time Stops don't stop anyway.

That's why I use a Rig, which is only slightly heavier, only slightly more expensive these days, and grabs 9mm rope much more reliably than a Stop despite not being rated for anything like it. The handle is about 3.2 billion times better. I haven't put to hundreds of miles of hard expedition use though so would be interested if anyone else uses one...

 

[Kenilworth]

These have been repeated trips into three project caves having four pits of 19, 42, 55, and 59 feet

Thank you, Kenilworth; off-topic, but I was curious as to how far you would be prepared to descend using a krab as a descender.

I don't know. I started eliminating things that served no real purpose and that's where I ended up.  I don't get worked up about saving weight, but if I have no reason to put a rack or even a figure-8 in my pack...
I think the longest I've done was 90 feet, on a cliff. It was a free drop, unlike the caves I've been doing, so the big disadvantage of the Munter/Italian/whatever you call it was manifest.

 

[paul]

Just to add some actual examples of things which have gone wrong (in the Peak, in these cases):

375: GIANTS HOLE, CASTLETON
Wednesday 20 May 2015
A caver had an uncontrolled abseil down Garlands Pot and sustained chest injuries. Once hauled up the pitch he was able to make his way slowly to the surface with assistance. This was rescue number 40 from Giants Hole. Spookily, the time of call out (21:03) was exactly the same as the last call to Garlands Pot in February.

310: JAMES HALL MINE (JH), CASTLETON
Saturday 4th December 2004
A caver while abseiling down the second (Bitch) pitch fell the final 5 metres. Due to location in the cave and suspecting a spinal injury he was evacuated via Leviathan and out though Speedwell Cavern. This was DCRO's biggest and most technical rescue in recent years lasting over 9 hours and involving over 50 rescue personnel. The injured caver was later found not to have damaged his spine. He had fractured his scapula (shoulder blade), some ribs and had severe bruising.

307: GIANTS HOLE, CASTLETON
Sunday 2nd May 2004
Caver made an uncontrolled decent while abseiling down Garlands pot. Sustaining fractured vertebrae he was stretchered to the surface where he was air-lifted to hospital.

305: GIANTS HOLE, CASTLETON
Monday 12th April 2004
A caver abseiled of the end of the rope wile descending Garlands pot. He complained of back pain impaired use of a leg. DCRO members stretchered him to surface where he was air-lifted to hospital.

In Incidents 375, 307 and 305 the device was a Stop. I can't remember for Incident 310 but as the caver abseiled off the end of the rope (similar to 305), it probably wouldn't have mattered whether it was an Autolock descender or not.

See: http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I use a rack for everything and where I can't, due to silly complicated fiddling, I use a stop.

I had a go on an ID and hated it. Rig's are crude as well. I would use one if I was painting a bridge though.

 

[Fulk]

Paul?s post above about someone abbing off the end of a rope brings to mind the following incident. I had met up with some friends to do Rowten Pot, and one of the people I met up with me, having agreed to bring the rope, handed me a bag full of rope, and asked me to start rigging. So I did, but when I reached the ledge at the bottom of the first pitch, I slipped on the ledge, let go of my (Stop) descender, and headed off for the open hole beneath (for those not familiar with Rowten Pot, the next pitch is about 45 metres). I thought, ?No matter, I?ll fetch up against the knot in the end of the rope ? err, shit? as the end of the rope flicked out of the tackle bag to reveal no knot. As is obvious from my still being here to post this anecdote, my Stop did what I expected it to do, and stopped me going down the next pitch ? but I?m pretty certain I wouldn?t be here now had I been using a ?Simple?.

My friend later said that ?The rope was bagged for transport to the cave, not for rigging it? ? but he neglected to tell me that!

I wonder ? would the guy whose accident Paul cites have stopped with a Stop?

 

[paul]

Possibly not. Not only was there no knot on the end (NEVER, EVER, EVER do this), it was the wrong rope and much too short.

I imagine that if you were using a Stop and were descending as normal with the handle in and controlling the rope with your braking hand, when the end of the rope shoots out of your tackle sack, it would be too late to let go of the handle.

I have a feeling that in this case the caver was using a rack, but it was some time ago and I cannot remember to be honest. I don't think having an Autolock descender would have made any difference if the rope is too short and this fact is hidden by it being in a tackle bag and not visible. By the time the unknotted end of the rope appeared out of the sack, it would be too late to do anything.


I personally use the technique recommended in ACT of tying the top end if the rope to the loop in the knot in the bottom end, When you pull a the top of a rope from the tackle bag when rigging the pitch, you can see the other end and it has a knot.

 

[Fulk]

By the time the unknotted end of the rope appeared out of the sack, it would be too late to do anything.

It clearly wasn't in my case just cited, but there again, I wasn't dangling on the end of a free-hanging rope, but flailing around on a ledge when the last bit of rope (maybe a metre or so) flicked out of the bag, and I'd probably already let go the handle. I acknowledge that things might have been different had I been dangling near the end of the rope when the end flicked out of the bag.

 

[MJenkinson]

By the time the unknotted end of the rope appeared out of the sack, it would be too late to do anything.

makes my hands sweat just thinking about that. Rowten is deep enough to be able to contemplate your fate on the way down as well.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I don't think any of the half-dozen or so people I caved with regularly would be able to force themselves to pack a rope without a knot in both ends. I have talked about this with some of them.
It's so obvious that once you have let the tackle sack out of your sight you have no control over its use.
What's the point in NOT putting a knot in the end?

 

[Peregrina]

My friend later said that ?The rope was bagged for transport to the cave, not for rigging it? ? but he neglected to tell me that!

That's surely not a thing. Shouldn't be a thing. Don't do that. *shudder*
Sounds like your friend was too embarrassed to admit to a dangerous mistake.

 

[Fulk]

Well, it was a long time ago (early 1980s) . . . that doesn't excuse it, but I guess cavers are far more aware now.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I personally use the technique recommended in ACT of tying the top end if the rope to the loop in the knot in the bottom end, When you pull a the top of a rope from the tackle bag when rigging the pitch, you can see the other end and it has a knot.

Exactly.

If I don't see the knot, it doesn't exist. I will unpack the rope and check.

Think I'm being unreasonable? Fine. You rig it.

 

[cap n chris]

Exactly.

If I don't see the knot, it doesn't exist. I will unpack the rope and check.

Think I'm being unreasonable? Fine. You rig it.

2nd'ed. If you're the rigger either pack ALL the bags yourself, or unpack and repack them just to be 100% sure. If not, beware.

 

[Simon Wilson]

? but I?m pretty certain I wouldn?t be here now had I been using a ?Simple?.

I totally reject the idea that a Stop is safer than a Simple. If you were a Simple user this would never have happened because you would have been pulling the rope out of the bag with your free hand.

 

[andrewmcleod]

And who says that the clutch-and-plummet accidents above wouldn't have been equally bad with a Simple? People clutch and plummet for presumably one of two reasons:
- because they really don't know what they are supposed to be doing (possibly have never descended a pitch before; I am thinking of an old club incident I have been told of, ironically also at Garlands, with a very under-trained novice and incompetent leader), or
- (far more usually, I expect) have been startled/panicked, at which point who knows what might happen...

I would guess, based on extremely dubious inferences that are wrong, that most people start on a Stop, so you expect the most accidents with that device.

Or ignoring this, I argue that my Rig is clearly the safest device of all since there are (to my knowledge) no caving accidents involving their use at all!

In general I will not use a non-locking device any more. I trust myself to be competent not to defeat the device through misuse (which has always been the only real issue with things like Stops, Grigris etc - they work if you leave them alone!) but don't trust myself to get everything right 100% of the time (not that I've messed up and been saved by the Stop yet).

One advantage of everybody switching to Simples though would be that cave rescue could stop training to rescue people hanging on their descenders mid-pitch having become unconscious/exhausted...

I totally reject the idea that a Stop is safer than a Simple. If you were a Simple user this would never have happened because you would have been pulling the rope out of the bag with your free hand.

That's a bit dogmatic...

I honestly don't know whether Stops or Simples are safer - and the only way to know would be accurate accident statistics. I doubt you, or anyone else, has those statistics. The FFE have decided one way. Government standards agencies have gone the other (in the more general locking vs non-locking debate).

It's interesting that in climbing abseiling without a prussik backup is heavily frowned upon. Perhaps this is because they tend to drag loose rocks off things more often on big Alpine descents - we never get loose rock in caving, right?