SRT teaching, descending - stop or simple?

[Kenilworth]

For my own use, I don't care which device is safer. I know how to use them properly and accept that an accident is possible with all. I do not use a safety and accept that by some odd occurrence I may die. The odds are acceptable to me. Knowing how accidents happen and how your gear reacts to various conditions is more useful and safe than "safer gear". Varied practice is important. Accident reports are useful. Personal initiative and responsibility are essential.

A couple of my relatives have asked me to take them into some vertical caves. I supplied them with the needed gear, showed them how to use it, and offered to take them as soon as they could demonstrate basic skills, including a changeover. Years have passed. They keep asking to go into a vertical cave I'm mapping, but it will not happen. I am willing to help them as much as I can, but I won't accept responsibility for a life when its owner is too lazy to do the same.

If I were training a person or group of people who wanted to learn, I would be totally unconcerned with the device they used. Let it be whatever is available, whatever they prefer, whatever they can afford. That's the least important part of the thing and certainly not worth the debate that this forum (as evidenced by Chris' concordance) has given it.

 

[mikem]

If anyone is an ACA member they can see what the American statistics show:
https://caves.org/pub/aca/

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

One advantage of everybody switching to Simples though would be that cave rescue could stop training to rescue people hanging on their descenders mid-pitch having become unconscious/exhausted...

You'd still need to have the skill set to rescue them hanging unconscious/exhausted mid-pitch on their ascenders.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Clutch & plummet is a problem with the Stop, especially for the overconfident/careless.
A friend probably found a novel way of coming to grief 20 years ago on one of the short pitches ? Carol I think - beyond the duck in Simpsons.
He could never remember exactly what happened, and all I heard was the bang as he hit the floor because I was heading off to rig the next pitch.
He rarely bothered to lock off his Stop, so we later decided that he had most likely taken hold of a dangling cows-tail and then squeezed the handle!
There were only the two of us, and he had driven us up there in his car, so after we emerged many hours later I drove (uninsured I think, but never asked) him back to the A&E at Chesterfield.

You can't make that mistake with a Simple or a rack: you have to lock them off and so when you unlock them you KNOW you have hold of the control rope.

The Stop is a useful device in several emergency situations, and I suppose it makes sense to use it as your descender if you are going to take it.

 

[al]

That's why I use a Rig, which is only slightly heavier, only slightly more expensive these days, and grabs 9mm rope much more reliably than a Stop despite not being rated for anything like it. The handle is about 3.2 billion times better. I haven't put to hundreds of miles of hard expedition use though so would be interested if anyone else uses one...

I also use a Rig. When I developed arthritis in my wrists and thumbs, I found using a stop on long SRT trips very painful. The action of the Rig is more like pulling a pint than squeezing and I'm impressed with the difference between the rig and the stop on very long pitches. The other thing I like about the rig is the ease with which you can use it to go up the rope, if necessary - because it's a "C" configuration, rather than an "S".

 

[caving_fox]

By the time the unknotted end of the rope appeared out of the sack, it would be too late to do anything.

makes my hands sweat just thinking about that. Rowten is deep enough to be able to contemplate your fate on the way down as well.

I know! Want to this: 

I personally use the technique recommended in ACT of tying the top end if the rope to the loop in the knot in the bottom end, When you pull a the top of a rope from the tackle bag when rigging the pitch, you can see the other end and it has a knot.

??
Seems easy enough. Does it interfere with the rope feeding form the bag?

 

[Fulk]

Simon Wilson:

? but I?m pretty certain I wouldn?t be here now had I been using a ?Simple?.

I totally reject the idea that a Stop is safer than a Simple. If you were a Simple user this would never have happened because you would have been pulling the rope out of the bag with your free hand.

You seem to be missing the point, Simon. I said that I slipped on the ledge at the bottom of the pitch ? as a result of which I was flailing around. I would probably have let go of the rope whatever descending device I had been using.

 

[Simon Wilson]

And who says that the clutch-and-plummet accidents above wouldn't have been equally bad with a Simple? People clutch and plummet for presumably one of two reasons:
- because they really don't know what they are supposed to be doing (possibly have never descended a pitch before; I am thinking of an old club incident I have been told of, ironically also at Garlands, with a very under-trained novice and incompetent leader), or
- (far more usually, I expect) have been startled/panicked, at which point who knows what might happen...

Clutch-and-plummet is a thing that happens with the Stop and we know it happens. With any 'simple' type of descender a cautious abseiler will have both hands gripping the live rope and much less likely to let go of it in any situation (Fulk). If they are startled the natural reaction is to grip harder. I accept the reasons for the invention of self-locking descenders and I accept that they might have saved some people's lives when they have become incapable of gripping the rope for a variety of reasons.

The Simple is safer because an habitual user is in the habit of never letting go of the live rope until it's locked off. For this to happen it is far better if the user learns with a Simple, sticks with it and becomes habituated in its use.

Based on my own experience of teaching SRT with figure-of-8s, racks and both Petzl Stops and Simples and watching other people teach with Stops, I am certain that people become confident and relatively safe abseilers far more quickly with any simple type of descender.

Any of the simple type is easier and more immediate for new users to understand exactly how it works - let the rope slide and you go down, grip the rope and you stop. That is all they need to know at first. Don't teach them how to lock it off until they are totally confident in using it the basic way. I accept that there is the added problem in that they have to be able to unclip their cowstail with one hand but that is a good basic skill to learn early on.

One advantage of everybody switching to Simples though would be that cave rescue could stop training to rescue people hanging on their descenders mid-pitch having become unconscious/exhausted...

I don't know how many people have been resued after having their lives saved by their Stop but I guess it will have happened. Perhaps the most common reason for novices needing to be rescued after becoming stuck hanging on their Stop descenders is that they weren't capable or confident in using them and that would not have happened if they had been using any simple type of descender.

Obviously any accident that happens to a novice abseiling is probably down the the instructor but we have to accept that in the real world people are often taught by people who are not so good at teaching - as discussed above.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Simon Wilson:

? but I?m pretty certain I wouldn?t be here now had I been using a ?Simple?.

I totally reject the idea that a Stop is safer than a Simple. If you were a Simple user this would never have happened because you would have been pulling the rope out of the bag with your free hand.

You seem to be missing the point, Simon. I said that I slipped on the ledge at the bottom of the pitch ? as a result of which I was flailing around. I would probably have let go of the rope whatever descending device I had been using.

If you had been pulling the rope out of the bag as you went you would have seen the end had no knot long before you got to it. If I have to abseil on a rope in a bag that someone else has packed I always pull it out of the bag and check it all the way down. And that is easier to do with a Simple descender.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The widespread use of the Stop in caving is a peculiarly British thing and that has developed because of the self perpetuation of it's use. If people become accustomed to using the Stop they will almost inevitably never appreciate the many advantages of the Simple.

And I blame Whernside Manor.

 

[Fulk]

FFS, Simon. For the last time I SLIPPED ON THE LEDGE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FIRST PITCH AND LET GO OF THE F****** ROPE!!!!!

And while I accept the right of others to comment on anything I may post here, what gives you the right to keep banging on so vociferously on something that happened to me years ago when I was alone in a cave?

 

[paul]

By the time the unknotted end of the rope appeared out of the sack, it would be too late to do anything.

makes my hands sweat just thinking about that. Rowten is deep enough to be able to contemplate your fate on the way down as well.

I know! Want to this: 

I personally use the technique recommended in ACT of tying the top end if the rope to the loop in the knot in the bottom end, When you pull a the top of a rope from the tackle bag when rigging the pitch, you can see the other end and it has a knot.

??
Seems easy enough. Does it interfere with the rope feeding form the bag?

No.

1. Tie the usual knot in the end of your rope.

2. Start feeding the rope into the bag, but leave this end dangling out of the top by a short length.

3. When you get to the other end of the rope, tie it to the loop in the knot on the end and place both ends in the bag.

4. Repeat if there are any other ropes to pack in the same bag.

There is not much difference in how the rope feeds out of the bag until you have a few metres left.

 

[paul]

Clutch & plummet is a problem with the Stop, especially for the overconfident/careless.
A friend probably found a novel way of coming to grief 20 years ago on one of the short pitches ? Carol I think - beyond the duck in Simpsons.
He could never remember exactly what happened, and all I heard was the bang as he hit the floor because I was heading off to rig the next pitch.
He rarely bothered to lock off his Stop, so we later decided that he had most likely taken hold of a dangling cows-tail and then squeezed the handle!
There were only the two of us, and he had driven us up there in his car, so after we emerged many hours later I drove (uninsured I think, but never asked) him back to the A&E at Chesterfield.

You can't make that mistake with a Simple or a rack: you have to lock them off and so when you unlock them you KNOW you have hold of the control rope.

I witnessed a similar incident but luckily injury was avoided.

Following  two others down Cathedral pitch in Lost Johns I was at the top waiting to descend. The rigger had nearly run out of rope by the ledge with a large flake next to it part way down and started a new length of rope by tying the end of the short rope to the flake and the second rope to that so that there was a bit of a mess (a mistake!).

The person in front of me abseiled down using a Stop. got to the ledge and transferred to the lower rope as a belay pass. So far so good.

Luckily they did the usual test of their descender while still clipped in with a cowstail. They got ready to descend, pressed in the Stop handle and immediately dropped right onto their long cowstail with a bang.

They had a hold of the wrong piece of rope when they pressed the handle in. A close call.

 

[paul]

And who says that the clutch-and-plummet accidents above wouldn't have been equally bad with a Simple? People clutch and plummet for presumably one of two reasons:
- because they really don't know what they are supposed to be doing (possibly have never descended a pitch before; I am thinking of an old club incident I have been told of, ironically also at Garlands, with a very under-trained novice and incompetent leader), or
- (far more usually, I expect) have been startled/panicked, at which point who knows what might happen...

By definition you can only "clutch and plummet" when using an Autolock descender.

If your descender has no Autolock facility, you won't "plummet" as long as it is either locked off or you are holding onto the rope with your hand below the descender. With a Stop, you can dangle on the rope and press the handle in without holding onto the rope with your hand below the descender, resulting in the "plummet". Letting go to stop (if the pitch is long enough) will not happen as the natural tendency is to clutch anything to stop falling, which includes the descender and its handle.

I am aware of an incident where caver descended a mineshaft using a rack, dropped into a layer of CO2 and managed to lock off before becoming unconscious. He was rescue rapidly luckily because the rope had been tied to a vehicle and he was pulled up by driving the vehicle away from the shaft. In this case having an Autolock would indeed have been better, but it's the only such event I am aware of where a caver became unconscious while abseiling - which doesn't mean there are no examples. There are plenty of example of cavers being injured while abseiling without being rendered unconscious though.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I have strongly felt opinions on descenders and so do others. I thought we were discussing them willingly in a considerate, respectful and polite way.

What Fulk posted about his incident in Rowten could have been off topic except that it highlighted to me how people might tend to react instinctively according which type of descender they are habituated with, often the first descender they use which is bang on topic. Fulk invited discussion of it by posting it, so why so touchy?

There is a whole back story to this which goes back to the period Fulk was talking about and I could attempt to deconstruct the discussion but I really don't think people would be interested.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I think Petzl themselves have never been entirely happy with the Stop since they first produced it. It wasn't long after it's introduction that they advocated using a Shunt as a backup. They have brought out several other autolocking descenders since then. The Rig sounds interesting.

 

[Fulk]

Did you miss this bit?:

And while I accept the right of others to comment on anything I may post here

 

[Mike Hopley]

If you're the rigger either pack ALL the bags yourself, or unpack and repack them just to be 100% sure.

Even if I packed the bag myself, I still check to see the knot. Maybe I forgot it!

Indeed, if I packed the bag and don't see a knot, that's a worrying sign. Why would I do that? It could only happen if I was distracted.

 

[nobrotson]

And who says that the clutch-and-plummet accidents above wouldn't have been equally bad with a Simple? People clutch and plummet for presumably one of two reasons:
- because they really don't know what they are supposed to be doing (possibly have never descended a pitch before; I am thinking of an old club incident I have been told of, ironically also at Garlands, with a very under-trained novice and incompetent leader), or
- (far more usually, I expect) have been startled/panicked, at which point who knows what might happen...

Clutch-and-plummet is a thing that happens with the Stop and we know it happens. With any 'simple' type of descender a cautious abseiler will have both hands gripping the live rope and much less likely to let go of it in any situation (Fulk). If they are startled the natural reaction is to grip harder. I accept the reasons for the invention of self-locking descenders and I accept that they might have saved some people's lives when they have become incapable of gripping the rope for a variety of reasons.

The Simple is safer because an habitual user is in the habit of never letting go of the live rope until it's locked off. For this to happen it is far better if the user learns with a Simple, sticks with it and becomes habituated in its use.

Based on my own experience of teaching SRT with figure-of-8s, racks and both Petzl Stops and Simples and watching other people teach with Stops, I am certain that people become confident and relatively safe abseilers far more quickly with any simple type of descender.

Any of the simple type is easier and more immediate for new users to understand exactly how it works - let the rope slide and you go down, grip the rope and you stop. That is all they need to know at first. Don't teach them how to lock it off until they are totally confident in using it the basic way. I accept that there is the added problem in that they have to be able to unclip their cowstail with one hand but that is a good basic skill to learn early on.

One advantage of everybody switching to Simples though would be that cave rescue could stop training to rescue people hanging on their descenders mid-pitch having become unconscious/exhausted...

I don't know how many people have been resued after having their lives saved by their Stop but I guess it will have happened. Perhaps the most common reason for novices needing to be rescued after becoming stuck hanging on their Stop descenders is that they weren't capable or confident in using them and that would not have happened if they had been using any simple type of descender.

Obviously any accident that happens to a novice abseiling is probably down the the instructor but we have to accept that in the real world people are often taught by people who are not so good at teaching - as discussed above.

I know at least one extremely experienced caver who was hit by a rock exploring new cave in the alps and became unconscious. The stop saved his life. There are good reasons for using them. But in terms of teaching novice SRT users best practice from the start, I agree with a lot of what Simon has said, especially that people who learn on 'simple' descenders becoming much more proficient at doing so much quicker.

Andrew, I feel like you have a misunderstanding of what a clutch and plummet is.

 

[Mark Wright]

I think Petzl themselves have never been entirely happy with the Stop since they first produced it. It wasn't long after it's introduction that they advocated using a Shunt as a backup. They have brought out several other autolocking descenders since then. The Rig sounds interesting.

I think if Petzl weren't happy with the Stop they would have developed it further. Other than a few small changes to make production easier and/or less expensive the device hasn't really changed since the first version was produced in the late 70's.

The Shunt was developed to protect people who were descending with a Figure of 8 descender due to the likelihood of the user accidentally letting go of the tail line when the device wasn't locked off or being knocked unconscious during the descent.

It was designed to be clipped to the ventral attachment point on the harness, below the descender device, so that it would automatically lock onto the tail line and prevent a fall if the user let go.

In the absence of a suitable alternative back-up device at the inception of the rope access industry in the UK, the Shunt was considered the most appropriate device and was used on the end of a cow's tail and attached to both working and safety lines. Petzl tested this type of use, as the rope access industry didn't bother, and found that it wouldn't work in such a configuration if the loaded working line failed. Industry then moved to using the Shunt only on the safety line.

Because industry was ignoring the fact that nearly all the fatalities (and there have been many) were as a direct result of the user not letting go of the towing string or grabbing the device or the rope above the device during a fall, they issued a number of warnings about its continued use in this application and now it is generally only 'cowboy' rope access companies who use it still in this configuration.

The I'D and the Rig are the only other auto lock devices they have manufactured. The first version of the I'D, which had all the possible safety features available, was not liked by people working on sloping ground as the Panic Function was too aggressive and the device was constantly locking itself off. The current version has a partial Panic Function override facility (button on the end of the control handle) now making it the most widely used and by far the safest descender device used in the rope access industry.

The Rig is basically a small I'D with, other than the auto lock facility, none of the additional safety features provided by an I'D. There are a lot more moving parts in both a Rig and an I'D compared to a Stop so, if you don't look after them, they are more likely to get clogged up with mud down a cave.

A new version of the Rig comes out later this year with a stainless wear plate instead of the current curved alloy wear plate.

A lot of the points being made by people relate to the rope being in the tackle bag during the descent. Considering the thread relates specifically to novices, why would they be rigging the cave before they have been able to demonstrate their skills in basic techniques?

On the point of getting knocked out during a descent due to falling rocks, I am aware of many instances of this happening including the one in JH just the other year.

I think the real issue would come when someone makes a claim against, e.g. a University club, for supplying an inappropriate  device to a novice with no additional control measures, resulting in a fall. You will need to put forward a very good case to the judge to convince him/her that you did everything that was reasonably practicable to reduce the likelihood of such an accident.

An expert witness working on behalf of the prosecution will likely be very knowledgable about such things and I doubt anyone would be able to put forward a convincing argument that a Simple was the most appropriate device for a novice to be using on a single rope down a cave.

Mark