Statement from the Trustees of Pwll Du Cave Management Group

[David Rose]

Huge, you ask why my BCA newsletter article didn't mention the dangers posed by the Twll Du entrance to passers-by and the fact that it lies within the boundary of a scheduled historic monument, since "presumably" I was aware of these issues.

First, I had no idea the entrance lay - allegedly - within a scheduled monument boundary. Having become aware of it now, it still seems to me the opening of the entrance has not damaged the actual monument (the tramway), and I can't see how it is likely to in future if left open in some form - for example, with a gate and Derbyshire key. If I had known about this problem, I can assure you that I would have reported it, and I will do so in the next newsletter.

Secondly, I think you are exaggerating the risk to the public. It is mild compared with that posed by open potholes in other parts of the country. I sometimes think it's miraculous that no one (so far as I know) has ever fallen down Gaping Gill, for example. The YRC founder Edward Calvert almost did when inspecting it shortly before Martel's first descent in 1895. Unlike GG, the Twll Du entrance has been covered with a lid, and is quite small - basically, it's body-sized. It opens on to a sbort fixed ladder climb, that even a non-caver would find easy. A fall here would be unlikely, and if someone did fall, they would be very unlucky to fall all the way to the bottom of the pitch below. You are as likely to fall down Twll Du as you are to walk over the edge of the LLangatwg cliffs when out for a stroll in the mist. There is a risk, but it's manageable.

 

[Badlad]

Regarding voting practices in PDCMG; I was under the impression that this had been sorted out a few years back so that it was fairer and now "one club rep one vote".

Apologies, if I got that bit wrong. If that is correct, then the PDCMG is now probably the most democratic ACB in the country.

I'm not sure if this is correct either.  CNCC is recognised as an ACB and made up of dozens of full member clubs, even more associates and a committee of 14 plus officers.  At the moment it still 'manages' access to hundreds of caves including many multi entrance systems.  It has dealt with lot's of 'renegade' cavers digging new entrances into systems such as Gaping Gill and the Three Counties System over many years.  Some with permission and many without.  The entrance to Notts 2 is a good example of that as it was dug open against landowner wishes over a period of years.  Even the CNCC of the time, more hard line than now perhaps, took a philosophical approach and never condemned the diggers or sided with the landowner. 

The subtle difference in my opinion is that CNCC recognises it is there to represent cavers.  PDCMG and similar groups are set up to manage the cave including controlling access.  Conflict seems to arise when that group takes sides or the policies of the management group don't meet the expectations of some groups of cavers.

The representative body for cavers in Wales is Cambrian Caving Council.  Perhaps the answer is to have them more closely involved.  Why not establish a structure where Cambrian CC acts as the trustees (license holders) rather than three individuals and delegate the management of the cave to the group very similar to what PDCMG is now.

 

[David Rose]

I think you have put your finger on it, Badlad.

The trustees issued their statement without consulting the members of the PDCMG, or even its chair. They kept it secret until Descent was out. They have not joined the ensuing debate here. This is not accountability or democracy.

And underlying this, as you rightly point out, is their belief that because the landowner currently supports a single entrance policy, then it is their job to enforce his wishes, and that argument seems to trump everything else. In their view, those who seek to change the status quo are "renegades" - an obnoxious term of abuse that I hope they come to regret.

 

[NigR]

David is correct on both counts in his earlier post.

There is no damage whatsoever to the actual monument (the tramway) itself. Technically, I am fairly certain that Twll Du is indeed within the boundary as this appears to extend a little way up the hillside, presumably acting as a form of "buffer zone" or suchlike. However, the entrance is slightly above and to one side, at the foot of a very steep upwards slope and right beside a short section of exposed rockface, all of which are subject to the processes of natural erosion. If anyone doubts this, I strongly suggest they go and see for themselves. Don't worry, you will not fall foul of the law in any way (and hence should be safe from prosecution!) as you will be on a public footpath (on open access land) at all times. It is a very pleasant walk and I would highly recommend it to anyone who may have even the slightest interest in either caving or industrial archaeology. Chances are you will be passed by several mountain bikers riding directly along the bed of the tramway and if you are interested in wildlife you will note that the mole population must be on the increase as there are more molehills visible now than ever before. (Has anyone told the moles they are breaking the law?!).

Public safety is obviously important and certainly needs to be taken into consideration but I definitely agree that in this particular case the actual dangers are being grossly exaggerated. The hole is well covered at the present time and nobody (unless they were only six inches high!) could possibly fall down it by accident. Even if anyone does feel inclined to remove the covers to see what lies beneath, any danger is immediately apparent. There are far greater potential threats to one's safety out on the hillside, I can assure you. If you continue the walk past Twll Du westwards towards Pwll Du (possibly with the intention of having a welcome pint at the Lamb and Fox public house), not long after crossing a stile you will be faced with a really sketchy section of path above a large open quarry face. This is only short (c.5m or so) but is very narrow and is liable to be quite slippy underfoot, with a slight change in height partway along (more exposed coming from the opposite direction). Be exceedingly careful here, if you slip you may well die or, at the very least, be seriously injured. In fact, the entire area around here is potentially lethal to the unwary but what are the options, fence off every single drop with barbed wire and electric fences?!

 

[Dave Tyson]

The representative body for cavers in Wales is Cambrian Caving Council.  Perhaps the answer is to have them more closely involved.  Why not establish a structure where Cambrian CC acts as the trustees (license holders) rather than three individuals and delegate the management of the cave to the group very similar to what PDCMG is now.

CCC did try and arbitrate over Drws Cefn entrance, but we really didn't manage to get very far. Our constitution forbids interference with member clubs etc. unless they agree and I believe the BCA rules are similar. There have been a couple times in the last year or so where we would have liked to wave a big stick at a couple of clubs who overstepped the mark in some areas, but were powerless to do anything formally and just had to have a quiet word instead.

Maybe we need to make a few changes to the constitution of both the BCA and regional bodies so that the emphasis is on respecting the wishes of the majority of cavers and not a small clique bent on their own agenda 

Dave

 

[BradW]

There have been a number of comments along the lines of because the hole didn't disturb the line of the dramroad itself then it's not really damaging anything. Well, the monument is not just the trackbed. I  expect the monument will be fully inclusive of all the artificial works associated with the dramway, on both sides, back as far as the original natural ground surface. This would protect everything that was "created" when the dramway was built, the cutting back of the hillside and the revetment below supporting the dramway, any culverts, drains etc, if there ever were any.

While there may less tangible archaeology on either side of the dramway, it would be best practice to offer protection to the entire construction as it preserves the whole story of this very early piece of transport history.

Is it just cavers who think they know better than anyone else, or every group with narrow self-focussed opinions who happen to have access to the internet?

If the book gets thrown at someone, they only have themselves to blame if they take this quite arrogant stance.

 

[BradW]

Badlad and Rose might not have appreciated the level of accountability and role of trustees, from whom this statement came. As far as I know, trustees responsibilities only extend as far as ensuring the body they are trustees for do not act outside the remit set for them to follow. As such they are perfectly entitled to publish a statement without reference to anyone other than themselves, should they choose to do so.

 

[BradW]

Our constitution forbids interference with member clubs etc. unless they agree and I believe the BCA rules are similar.

Maybe we need to make a few changes to the constitution of both the BCA and regional bodies so that the emphasis is on respecting the wishes of the majority of cavers and not a small clique bent on their own agenda 

Superficially a good idea, but who decides what the wishes of the majority of cavers is?

If you reduce or remove any regard for clubs and other represented bodies, you can expect them to leave. Who would join a body just to be told what to do by them?

 

[Kevlar]

Is it just cavers who think they know better than anyone else, or every group with narrow self-focussed opinions who happen to have access to the internet.

Not necessarily? What about trustees?

they are perfectly entitled to publish a statement without reference to anyone other than themselves, should they choose to do so.

:tease:

 

[alastairgott]

Is it just cavers who think they know better than anyone else, or every group with narrow self-focussed opinions who happen to have access to the internet.

Not necessarily? What about trustees?

Cats have opinions too.

 

[BradW]

I am not sure what your point is, Kevlar. Trustees are not free agents. They are legally obliged to act within the sole set of purposes they are constituted for. It would be negligent of them not to do so. And also negligent of them to act outside their remit. There are probably legal consequences should they not act with due diligence, so they must be prudent in their actions and decisions. Unlike, it seems, some democratically elected representatives.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Exciting as the discussion about whether the entrance is or is not on the scheduled monument, whether it has caused damage or not, whether Cadw cares, whether we should care, whether we should chase down the diggers with flaming pitchforks or celebrate as plucky revolutionary heroes...

it has bugger all to do with the more general discussion about how access to Draenen should be managed, by who, and on what basis and authority.

(in fairness this thread started explicitly about Twll Du, so I should probably shut up...)

 

[Ship-badger]

Nobody jumped in earlier when I alluded to it, so can somebody here confirm whether members of the PDGMG did or did not drive their vehicles across the tramroad on the day that they concreted the Nunnery entrance? And if they did, did they obtain permission to do so from CADW?

 

[cavemanmike]

the freedom of information act should tell you

 

[NigR]

An account of the concreting of the Nunnery entrance back in 1999 can be found online on OUCC's own website in their weekly newsletter Depth Through Thought 9.14 (16/6/99) under the heading "Chelsea Flower Show" (the entrance was discovered by members of CSS) written by Chris 'tropical fruit all round' Densham. There is no mention here of any vehicles being used but the people to ask would be the "select handful of landscape gardening enthusiasts" who did the concreting. These were Chris himself, Ali Garman, Ben Lovett and Ian Wilton-Jones, members of Oxford University and Morgannwg caving clubs.

Even after all this time I am amazed and appalled that cavers can take such obvious delight in concreting a cave, thereby totally negating the many hours of hard work and effort put in by all the other cavers who helped discover it. Is it any wonder that we are where we are today?

 

[droid]

Perfectly understandable if you consider the cave to be your own personal fiefdom, I suppose.....

And of course it fulfilled the landowners' requirements.

 

[mikem]

Chris Densham was a trustee at the time (all I see is a typical student's sense of humour in his OUCC report):
http://www.pdcmg.org.uk/min90599.htm

Much smaller turn out at the next meeting & there was hardly a mention of the 2nd entrance:
http://www.pdcmg.org.uk/min141199.htm

Mike

 

[BradW]

Perfectly understandable if you consider the cave to be your own personal fiefdom, I suppose.....

This is an unfortunate comment.

Those who do what they damn well like on other people's land without any reference to the owner or their representatives are surely those who deserve comments such as this. I guess they probably enjoyed doing it as well. Those sealing up an entrance may well have gained some satisfaction in doing so - you'd have to ask them - but they were most certainly not acting like it was their land to do what they wanted on.

Do we really need to be following the recent examples from purveyors of "alternative facts"?

When we are tempted to make such statements, let's look in the mirror before clicking on "post".

 

[royfellows]

"Those who do what they damn well like on other people's land ...."

Just as passing comment, one cannot do what you damn well like on any land whoever owns it.
We have planning laws, SSSI, SAM, Public Rights of Way, Civil Aviation Act allows overflying, plus possibly a lot of other stuff I cant immediately think of.

I believe the criteria is 'the public interest', in my own words.

My point here is that a lot of this stuff cuts both ways

 

[alastairgott]

Perfectly understandable if you consider the cave to be your own personal fiefdom, I suppose.....

This is an unfortunate comment.

Those who do what they damn well like on other people's land without any reference to the owner or their representatives are surely those who deserve comments such as this.

I think it was an unbiased comment, waged at both sides. Or perhaps at those who are getting het up about "sides". We're all cavers. Stop raging.