Stupid Swildon's questions
- Thread starter Cantclimbtom
- Start date
You are better with a ladder or be rigged to lower from the pitch head if it goes pear shaped and they get stuck underwater - ie you need a longer rope rigged to something you can release like a Stop. Canyoning style. It’s quite nasty for such an ickle pitch.
This is from someone who has climbed it once with a lifeline (the last time) and every other time without one (many).
This is from someone who has climbed it once with a lifeline (the last time) and every other time without one (many).
Oceanrower
Active member
I’ve asked myself that many times…
PeteHall
Moderator
I believe the CCC rules still stipulate "no novices" for GB, though it is a very novice-friendly cave (and was in fact my first proper caving trip).
Oceanrower
Active member
Quoted from upthread…
“I've herded him through crtt and Parc and so forth in the past”
Should qualify, I would have thought.
Speleofish
Active member
I think GB and Swildons would both be ideal trips for a moderately inexperienced teenager. I first went to Sump 2 in Swildons when I was nine. I had to wait till I was 16 to be allowed down GB - which is generally less difficult. A further alternative would be Manor Farm Swallet. Once you're down the entrance pitch, the rest (ignoring the recent evil extensions at the far end) is straightforward and very pleasant. There's a fairly easy climb on which you may want a handline (can be avoided) and a relatively tight squeeze which isn't intimidating as it's obviously very short.
If I were taking a son caving, I'd start with Swildons. It's got quite a lot of everything you could possibly want and has so much more history than the others. And there's a certain cachet to having been through a sump (assuming it's not dried out to a duck).
If I were taking a son caving, I'd start with Swildons. It's got quite a lot of everything you could possibly want and has so much more history than the others. And there's a certain cachet to having been through a sump (assuming it's not dried out to a duck).
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
He's uncooperative about being left locked in the car on his own for 4 hours, you just can't please kids these days!
More seriously... my ulterior motive is if I was on the doorstep (and I don't get out that much) i'd be very disappointed to miss the opportunity. But honestly if he really didn't want to go I won't force him.
He seemed unenthusiastic about a quick nosey about Maenofferen (which I think is a gem!) and wasn't comfortable with all the false floor in Parc so we made that a very short trip, which is why I mention he's not an enthusiast for being underground. But he's never tried caving so I think he should try it and see?
He's not against a caving trip, just not super enthusiastic to try. For perspective though, he wasn't very keen on trying diving either but a couple of years ago I brow beat him into doing an open water and now he's harassing me when we can go. We'll only know if he actually tries. If he doesn't like it then so be it, he doesn't have to go again.
Hope this doesn't read as some ogre "stop crying... or we'll stay here another 6 hours!" bullying, honestly it's not.
Speleofish
Active member
If you want to awe him with huge darkness, GB is better. Overall, if you want to make him enthusiastic about caves, Swildons is probably a better example. Both very good...
More importantly, if he's not going to go underground, Swildons is in the middle of Priddy, a VERY small metropolis with a pub (Queen Vic) that sells food and drinks (including tea and coffee). GB and Manor Farm Swallet are miles from nowhere so he'd need a picnic/book/well-charged kindle while you went exploring.
More importantly, if he's not going to go underground, Swildons is in the middle of Priddy, a VERY small metropolis with a pub (Queen Vic) that sells food and drinks (including tea and coffee). GB and Manor Farm Swallet are miles from nowhere so he'd need a picnic/book/well-charged kindle while you went exploring.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
GB is an excellent suggestion. Swildons is great, but probably more appreciated by enthusiastic cavers than potentially-reluctant cavers.
The ladder at Swildons is indeed a source of enormous ridiculousness. I've not even been there that many times and I've seen all sorts of silliness. For example, just from personal experience:
a) People doing SRT there when people are waiting. Yes, SRT can be pretty fast, but if people were good at SRT they wouldn't be doing it on the 20ft pitch in Swildons so its inevitably novices taking forever to do it.
b) Hitting a queue of 10 to 15 people, most of whom are novices, taking a long time to get up the pitch with the occasional haul being set up.
c) The 'etiquette' at Swildons is that if there is already a ladder on the pitch (which there often is), you leave your bag there and when the party who rigged the ladder rigs _your_ ladder when they leave. This means that whoever rigs the pitch ends up having to rig someone else's ladder as well which seems unfair.
d) When you go to rig someone else's ladder, you find an inadequate amount of gear to make a safe (or at least a safe easy) rig so you do the best you can e.g. I once had to girth hitch a sling to one bolt, clip the other end to the other bolt and hang the ladder off that same carabiner to make the Y-hang for the lifeline to have enough carabiners left for everything else.
e) Sometimes you rig your ladder intending to leave it in place for some time, but someone derigs it anyway and rigs their own ladder (this isn't that annoying in general, except when badly rigged).
f) When someone else rigs your stuff and does a bad job e.g. the classic Mendips crap ladder rigging of ladder on one bolt (totally fine), lifeline on the other bolt (not ideal).
g) Finding, when you return to the ladder, that the ends of the lifeline haven't been clipped together so you only have one end and the first person up has to do it unlifelined.
h) All sorts of bizarre stupid rigging like the guy I saw who had brought two carabiners and a pulley for the lifeline. Two carabiners so the pulley would be 'properly oriented', but still only on one bolt. Why even use a pulley, and make life more difficult and harder for yourself? Friction is your friend when belaying. (I think the belay was a waist belay, which actually isn't catastrophic if done correctly, but...).
i) Meeting a big group coming down as you are coming up, asking to do one up, one down (slightly faster) and making the mistake of not going first and checking what was happening at the top. Finally getting to the top, and discovering the guy was doing a waist belay - but directly over the edge, while not actually belayed to anything... When I gently pointed this out, he clipped the end of the rope to something. This wouldn't have done much as there was about 5m of slack in the rope...
Some day someone needs to put a fixed ladder (back) on that stupid pitch instead of trashing the calcite (which ladders and cavers are doing) and reducing endless cavers to angry hypothermia while they queue. The way that ladder hangs is an embarrassment to claims that cavers believe in cave conservation.
Rant over
Swildons is still a great cave apart from that 6m drop...
The ladder at Swildons is indeed a source of enormous ridiculousness. I've not even been there that many times and I've seen all sorts of silliness. For example, just from personal experience:
a) People doing SRT there when people are waiting. Yes, SRT can be pretty fast, but if people were good at SRT they wouldn't be doing it on the 20ft pitch in Swildons so its inevitably novices taking forever to do it.
b) Hitting a queue of 10 to 15 people, most of whom are novices, taking a long time to get up the pitch with the occasional haul being set up.
c) The 'etiquette' at Swildons is that if there is already a ladder on the pitch (which there often is), you leave your bag there and when the party who rigged the ladder rigs _your_ ladder when they leave. This means that whoever rigs the pitch ends up having to rig someone else's ladder as well which seems unfair.
d) When you go to rig someone else's ladder, you find an inadequate amount of gear to make a safe (or at least a safe easy) rig so you do the best you can e.g. I once had to girth hitch a sling to one bolt, clip the other end to the other bolt and hang the ladder off that same carabiner to make the Y-hang for the lifeline to have enough carabiners left for everything else.
e) Sometimes you rig your ladder intending to leave it in place for some time, but someone derigs it anyway and rigs their own ladder (this isn't that annoying in general, except when badly rigged).
f) When someone else rigs your stuff and does a bad job e.g. the classic Mendips crap ladder rigging of ladder on one bolt (totally fine), lifeline on the other bolt (not ideal).
g) Finding, when you return to the ladder, that the ends of the lifeline haven't been clipped together so you only have one end and the first person up has to do it unlifelined.
h) All sorts of bizarre stupid rigging like the guy I saw who had brought two carabiners and a pulley for the lifeline. Two carabiners so the pulley would be 'properly oriented', but still only on one bolt. Why even use a pulley, and make life more difficult and harder for yourself? Friction is your friend when belaying. (I think the belay was a waist belay, which actually isn't catastrophic if done correctly, but...).
i) Meeting a big group coming down as you are coming up, asking to do one up, one down (slightly faster) and making the mistake of not going first and checking what was happening at the top. Finally getting to the top, and discovering the guy was doing a waist belay - but directly over the edge, while not actually belayed to anything... When I gently pointed this out, he clipped the end of the rope to something. This wouldn't have done much as there was about 5m of slack in the rope...
Some day someone needs to put a fixed ladder (back) on that stupid pitch instead of trashing the calcite (which ladders and cavers are doing) and reducing endless cavers to angry hypothermia while they queue. The way that ladder hangs is an embarrassment to claims that cavers believe in cave conservation.
Rant over
Swildons is still a great cave apart from that 6m drop...
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
The ladder pitch is a fun freeclimable . Much quicker for competent cavers.Rant over
Swildons is still a great cave apart from that 6m drop...
Oceanrower
Active member
I climb for a living. There’s not a working day goes by I’m not on the end of a rope.
No it’s not.
JoshW
Well-known member
As an alternate view, you could explore for a long enough time in the upper series (I.e. above the 20ft waterfall) to call it a proper trip with a potentially uncooperative teenager in tow. This reduces the amount of kit being carried and also the distance from the entrance if bored and wanting to bail.
Lots of different bits of the cave to explore and learn if it’s your first time down. I think people think of swildons and immediately think there’s one marching route down to the first sump, but there’s some really cool passage to explore without ever invoking the risk of needing to haul someone up a ladder pitch.
Lots of different bits of the cave to explore and learn if it’s your first time down. I think people think of swildons and immediately think there’s one marching route down to the first sump, but there’s some really cool passage to explore without ever invoking the risk of needing to haul someone up a ladder pitch.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
The common misconception confusing 'competent' with 'foolhardy' (most often experienced in South Wales)...
Speleofish
Active member
If you free climb it when there's a crowd waiting to climb the ladder, you end to be unpopular... Worse, some people who shouldn't be trying to free climb will give it a go.
mrodoc
Well-known member
Ah, the queues at the 20! Andrew is right about the stal wearing away. I have photos from the 60's showing the changes. At one time a club, I think it was the Wessex, designed a sort of strut to hold the ladder out from the stal so you didn't trap your fingers going up or down. SRT is just plain silly when it's the only regularly used pitch in the system particularly, as Andrew says, because the bolts are all wrong. Finally you have to be a confident climber to free climb the 20. I did it once and decided it was too dangerous to do on a regular basis plus as he says it makes it very difficult for a party descending in the conventional way. Finally, putting in a fixed ladder? Hmm, probably goes on a par with putting in stemples on St. Cuthberts entrance rift, feasible but might result in less competent individuals getting into trouble further down the cave. St. Cuthbert's has got fixed aids further down the cave on major tourist routes where rigging each time would cause endless delays. A number have been removed over the years e.g. the wire in Wire Rift and the 3 rung ladder on the 3 rung ladder climb beyond Pillar Chamber. Finally I forgot that there used to be a fixed ladder in Swildons on the Greasy Chimney but it went long ago.GB is an excellent suggestion. Swildons is great, but probably more appreciated by enthusiastic cavers than potentially-reluctant cavers.
The ladder at Swildons is indeed a source of enormous ridiculousness. I've not even been there that many times and I've seen all sorts of silliness. For example, just from personal experience:
a) People doing SRT there when people are waiting. Yes, SRT can be pretty fast, but if people were good at SRT they wouldn't be doing it on the 20ft pitch in Swildons so its inevitably novices taking forever to do it.
b) Hitting a queue of 10 to 15 people, most of whom are novices, taking a long time to get up the pitch with the occasional haul being set up.
c) The 'etiquette' at Swildons is that if there is already a ladder on the pitch (which there often is), you leave your bag there and when the party who rigged the ladder rigs _your_ ladder when they leave. This means that whoever rigs the pitch ends up having to rig someone else's ladder as well which seems unfair.
d) When you go to rig someone else's ladder, you find an inadequate amount of gear to make a safe (or at least a safe easy) rig so you do the best you can e.g. I once had to girth hitch a sling to one bolt, clip the other end to the other bolt and hang the ladder off that same carabiner to make the Y-hang for the lifeline to have enough carabiners left for everything else.
e) Sometimes you rig your ladder intending to leave it in place for some time, but someone derigs it anyway and rigs their own ladder (this isn't that annoying in general, except when badly rigged).
f) When someone else rigs your stuff and does a bad job e.g. the classic Mendips crap ladder rigging of ladder on one bolt (totally fine), lifeline on the other bolt (not ideal).
g) Finding, when you return to the ladder, that the ends of the lifeline haven't been clipped together so you only have one end and the first person up has to do it unlifelined.
h) All sorts of bizarre stupid rigging like the guy I saw who had brought two carabiners and a pulley for the lifeline. Two carabiners so the pulley would be 'properly oriented', but still only on one bolt. Why even use a pulley, and make life more difficult and harder for yourself? Friction is your friend when belaying. (I think the belay was a waist belay, which actually isn't catastrophic if done correctly, but...).
i) Meeting a big group coming down as you are coming up, asking to do one up, one down (slightly faster) and making the mistake of not going first and checking what was happening at the top. Finally getting to the top, and discovering the guy was doing a waist belay - but directly over the edge, while not actually belayed to anything... When I gently pointed this out, he clipped the end of the rope to something. This wouldn't have done much as there was about 5m of slack in the rope...
Some day someone needs to put a fixed ladder (back) on that stupid pitch instead of trashing the calcite (which ladders and cavers are doing) and reducing endless cavers to angry hypothermia while they queue. The way that ladder hangs is an embarrassment to claims that cavers believe in cave conservation.
Rant over
Swildons is still a great cave apart from that 6m drop...
PeteHall
Moderator
Agree regarding being a 'confident climber' but I'll challenge you on the other points.
I free-climb up the 20 using the traverse route from well away from the waterfall. Even in very high water conditions, you remain clear of any flow, when the ladder pitch can become challenging. By climbing it regularly, you learn the route properly, knowing every hand and foot-hold and gaining confidence. It is not a difficult climb, but it is intimidating, so knowing how to do it and being confident in yourself are key.
If then, your party finds their ladder removed (as has occurred on many occasions) or water levels have risen making the ladder pitch dangerous, and you're forced to free-climb out, you're much less likely to have an accident if you have learnt the route under more favourable conditions and it's a regular feature of your caving, rather than making an unfamiliar climb under duress.
Also, the traverse route is well away from the ladder pitch; you climb straight over the top of the ladder climber and never get in the way.
I've only free-climbed down the 20 once and it scared the sh!t out of me! It's extremely intimidating stepping out over the edge, straddling across opposite walls and there is no familiarisation-benefit, as if conditions are inappropriate on the way in, just turn around and head back out.
I'd certainly not recommend free-climbing the 20 as a good introduction to Swildon's and there's certainly also a benefit to watching someone else do it before you try. You also need to be tall enough!
