Swildon's Hole, graffiti vandalism, Friday 23rd February 2007

[cap n chris]

Perhaps the CSCC should have a word with schools that run trips into such places.

Interesting running through imaginary scenarios on how that conversation might go!....

 

[Hughie]

Perhaps the CSCC should have a word with schools that run trips into such places.

Interesting running through imaginary scenarios on how that conversation might go!....

Surely there can't be any problem in making all (known) youth groups aware of conservation issuses in the caves they frequent.
It's not necessary to make any accusations (no evidence of culprit), just raise awareness.

 

[cap n chris]

Hughie, it is a prerequisite incumbent upon ALL qualified cave leaders to make a convincing and specific conservation case on EVERY trip they run, this includes all youth groups; whether or not they subsequently do so is down to them. We live in a free country and there's nowt can be done to enforce good/best practice.

Also, ALL cavers (sport, club, non-club, solo etc.) are expected to abide by the Ethical Caving Code, the Minimal Impact Caving Code, the Cave Conservation Code etc. but how many people are aware of the contents of these? - I guess quite a few cavers haven't even heard of them: your suggestion to "make all (known) youth groups aware of conservation issues" could equally be extended to making all (known) UK cavers (of any category) aware of ECC, MICC & CCC but do you think they'd take kindly to it? Maybe; maybe not. I imagine some might take umbrage while others may shrug and yet more may say "You what?".

I guess what it boils down to is whether or not individual cavers give a monkeys about the caves or whether instead they only give a monkeys about their own use/enjoyment of the cave and where the balance lies between the two is determined by how concerned they are (if at all!); my feeling is that by far the majority of people engaging in caving do so at such a low level (i.e. go a handful of times until they can say they've "been there, done that; got the t-shirt") that such concerns don't even enter their heads - however, since they are such transitory creatures their individual impact on cave environments is minimal - long-standing cavers, in "for life", have far greater need for conservation awareness, since they are likely to be engaged in multiple hundreds/thousands of visits and if they adopt a conservationist approach to their caving practice when they visit the further reaches of off-the-beaten-track caves then that's a good thing: such an awareness and respect for the caves can be "monitored" by custodians of vulnerable systems to see whether such a person should/would be a sympathetic visitor to a delicate site or whether instead they are a clod-hopping self-interested "I'll go where the hell I like and do what the hell I wish" kind of caver who should have any privileged access opportunities rightly denied them. I guess that this approach to cave conservation is one which works well but requires an individualistic, case-by-case, approach and isn't really something which can be blanket adopted, rather it's something which is down to individuals to police and implement.

I apologise if this sounds patronising; it's not supposed to be - however, given the subject matter it's pretty hard to write in a way which doesn't come across as a lecture!  :ang:

 

[emgee]

Hughie, it is a prerequisite incumbent upon ALL qualified cave leaders to make a convincing and specific conservation case on EVERY trip they run, this includes all youth groups; whether or not they subsequently do so is down to them. We live in a free country and there's nowt can be done to enforce good/best practice.

Also, ALL cavers (sport, club, non-club, solo etc.) are expected to abide by the Ethical Caving Code, the Minimal Impact Caving Code, the Cave Conservation Code etc. but how many people are aware of the contents of these? - I guess quite a few cavers haven't even heard of them: your suggestion to "make all (known) youth groups aware of conservation issues" could equally be extended to making all (known) UK cavers (of any category) aware of ECC, MICC & CCC but do you think they'd take kindly to it? Maybe; maybe not. I imagine some might take umbrage while others may shrug and yet more may say "You what?".

<snip>

I apologise if this sounds patronising; it's not supposed to be - however, given the subject matter it's pretty hard to write in a way which doesn't come across as a lecture!  :ang:

You clearly feel strongly about it and are reasonably articulate. Can I suggest an article for Descent would be a good idea. It wont get through to everyone by a long long way but it'd get the ideas around. Can't see them not taking a reasoned article on the subject particularly if vaguely controversial.

 

[graham]

[Writing on the walls seems to be something people have always done in caves.

Not always. I could give you the lecture if you wish.

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, there does appear to be something of a gap* in the writing-on-cave-walls-for-a-lark hobby in the UK.

* About 8,500 years, IIRC.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I assume you are not including mine walls in this statement, Chris?

 

[graham]

That would mostly fall outside of Chris's "for a lark" criterion, Peter.

 

[Peter Burgess]

That would mostly fall outside of Chris's "for a lark" criterion, Peter.

I don't think so, Graham. There are some large gratuitously drawn nobs and other similar drawings on walls in mines, drawn centuries ago by visitors or miners with nothing better to do.

 

[graham]

"centuries ago" still allows for a several thousand year gap in the record, as indicated by Chris. Don't forget that in Western Europe, this stuff dates back 35,000 years.

 

[graham]

The earliest nob drawing I know is an (as yet unpublished) example in a cave in the Pyrennes. It's probably about 13,000 years old.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I'd be very surprised if thousands of years ago the Romans, Greeks, Ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Assyrians, Huns, Vikings etc etc didn't do nob drawings as and when they felt the urge, and cared not whether their 'canvas' was the wall in the street, the dust on the ground, or a cave. The fact that Graham hasn't yet found one to write about doesn't mean they didn't do it.

 

[cap n chris]

Sorry, I've been away for a bit; I was overwhelmed with the urge to go out and do a nob drawing.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Sorry, I've been away for a bit; I was overwhelmed with the urge to go out and do a nob drawing.

Fantastic. That's the spirit.

 

[darkplaces]

Ridge and other old mines taken up by the military which would have large amount of people shifting ammo about had some of the rude wall drawings I have seen, all from the 1940s war era. With stylistic writing and dates we see women bent over, sex, fully nude women standing etc. SO it's not a sudden, teenager based activity, grown men, bored, have drawn stuff now thought of as 'historic' and interesting and worthy of photos.

http://www.c**tplaces.co.uk/phpBB2/album_page.php?pic_id=2798

 

[andymorgan]

I hope Darkplaces doesn't think he has a right to enter my entrance - filthy rodent!

 

[darkplaces]

I hope Darkplaces doesn't think he has a right to enter my entrance - filthy rodent!

squeek!
Rodents are very clean animals. :ang:

To put some peoples fears at rest, gates are not going to be disappearing over night in a rash of Gas Axe armed events. I do promote (but I cant control) members of DP to use the correct access arrangements were they can and are reasonable BUT not be shy about making it know if access is being deliberately difficult, for example were lawyers have been involved, irrational fears of every man and dog making claims. A lot of scare scaremongering is done by over-zealous 'officials'. H&S or protection of something is fine but its the idiots in the middle each adding a bit extra for just a little added safety that are the problem. What goes in as perfectly reasonable comes out the other end as unworkable and over engineered.

This recent unconfirmed report of the Union of farmers advising farmers to deny access to mines on farmland is an example of scaremongering. Thanks to this we have already had problems with access to Pandora mine.

 

[Dep]

...
I don't think so, Graham. There are some large gratuitously drawn nobs and other similar drawings on walls in mines, drawn centuries ago by visitors or miners with nothing better to do.

Peter, Graham, CnC.
Tut-tut chaps - I'd have thought you three of all people would know that the correct spelling is knob!
Shame on you all. 

 

[truescrumpy]

is there a difference between Swildons drawings and Loxton cave  drawings  :-\

 

[darkplaces]

You can all rest on your keyboards, don't worry, myself and menacer visited and I videoed with the head cam (video will be posted later) while menacer scrubbed away at the kn0b. It was gone within seconds. The offending 'art' was drawn in the brown thin scum layer that has formed over the Gour. Scubbing caused a clean patch so the rest of it was scrubbed so it didn't look out of place and draw attention.

Then me and menacer thought it looked too clean and decided to scribble our names on it  :tease:
Cap 'n Chris's image for comparison.