Tape Security Link?
- Thread starter D.Snaith
- Start date
JoshW
Well-known member
I feel this thread has (rather predictably) been derailed from the original purpose of discussing a tape security link to discussing use of tape cowstails, which I'm fairly sure had been discussed before.
I think anyone using the tape cowstails will be aware of the potential dangers, and so doesn't need the same discussions brought out time and time again.
bringing it back to topic, I don't see why sewing a big of tape as a security link would be an issue. provided you were careful sewing it you should be okay. might need a big boy sewing machine though: http://electricant.net/projects/testing/testing.htm could help
I think anyone using the tape cowstails will be aware of the potential dangers, and so doesn't need the same discussions brought out time and time again.
bringing it back to topic, I don't see why sewing a big of tape as a security link would be an issue. provided you were careful sewing it you should be okay. might need a big boy sewing machine though: http://electricant.net/projects/testing/testing.htm could help
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
JoshW said:
I'm not sure if you are meaning to bar-tack the ends together of a length of sling (probably a terrible idea unless you really know what you were doing, but what I would do would be buy a 60/120cm 8mm dyneema sling, and sew it along the middle. Or just tie a load of knots in it. Nearly all my climbing slings are 8mm now; looks a bit terrifying when you are hanging on it but very lightweight - and full 22kN strength. With a load of knots in it it will break at half that strength, but you will still break first...
blackholesun
New member
Surely you're just after a sling? Perhaps with some electrical tape wrapped around at intervals to keep the sides together?
Obviously a security link that looks like your cowstails introduces as much confusion as one that looks like a rope.
To be honest though, it's a pretty weird request. It's just not that hard finding your security link, particularly if it's the only piece of rope tied to your d-maillon, as it would be in your case. If that's really too much clutter, then go French style and use a cowstail as a security link.
If your security link needs to feel/look different then you could thread 9mm rope through a length of tubular tape. Wrap retroreflective tape on it at points?
If you can't find your hand jammer, then maybe change the batteries? If that's a duo in your photo, with one change it should last for a marathon bolt climbing session at a high brightness.
Falling on your jammers is pretty dangerous
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/45/ivyaccrpt.html
and can happen if a bolt fails. A tape security link just removes one of the very limited ways in which energy can be dissipated.
In short:
You can easily make something that will work out of a sling.
You can even buy things made from a similar material, with similar construction to the Bifidia, at an affordable price.
However,
Cavers don't sell them and I'm not going to say who does, because it's just not the solution here.
Obviously a security link that looks like your cowstails introduces as much confusion as one that looks like a rope.
To be honest though, it's a pretty weird request. It's just not that hard finding your security link, particularly if it's the only piece of rope tied to your d-maillon, as it would be in your case. If that's really too much clutter, then go French style and use a cowstail as a security link.
If your security link needs to feel/look different then you could thread 9mm rope through a length of tubular tape. Wrap retroreflective tape on it at points?
If you can't find your hand jammer, then maybe change the batteries? If that's a duo in your photo, with one change it should last for a marathon bolt climbing session at a high brightness.
Falling on your jammers is pretty dangerous
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/45/ivyaccrpt.html
and can happen if a bolt fails. A tape security link just removes one of the very limited ways in which energy can be dissipated.
In short:
You can easily make something that will work out of a sling.
You can even buy things made from a similar material, with similar construction to the Bifidia, at an affordable price.
However,
Cavers don't sell them and I'm not going to say who does, because it's just not the solution here.
blackholesun
New member
That reply probably came across as a touch aggressive. It's a fair question and worthy of consideration and discussion, but, and I don't think it'd be unreasonable to say this, in the caving community tape security links are avoided.
I tried to explain the issues to him but failed. One of a set of safety-related factors that convinced me to stop going underground with him.
Simon Wilson
New member
I've read and understood what D.Snaith is saying and I have dealt with the same problem myself. When you go bolt climbing underground you often end up in unusual situations at height and running short on spare gear. Sometimes you have to improvise and I choose to make sure that my gear allows for that. I have chosen to make sure that everything I use has the greatest chance of reducing peak loads if it is shock loaded.
I would never use tape for anything underground. Sewn tape slings are handy for many reasons in climbing but even then I have always tried to use nylon rope and cord in preference.
This video is informative about tape slings but one of the main messages is don't fall onto anything that does not have a lot of shock absorbing capacity such as a climbing rope. All of the falls simulated here would kill you or put you in hospital.
http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/
I would never use tape for anything underground. Sewn tape slings are handy for many reasons in climbing but even then I have always tried to use nylon rope and cord in preference.
This video is informative about tape slings but one of the main messages is don't fall onto anything that does not have a lot of shock absorbing capacity such as a climbing rope. All of the falls simulated here would kill you or put you in hospital.
http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/
Simon Wilson
New member
blackholesun said:
Oh dear! Oh dear! (shaking head)
I just read this article. It's long and hard to follow but in short - a caver died because he was bolt climbing using caving rope instead of climbing rope and he was attached to the rope by a Croll which chopped the rope.
Petzl have done tests which are well publicised and show that an ascender will cut the rope at about 4kN. 4kN is what would be generated by quite a small fall onto a static rope.
pwhole
Well-known member
Yeah, I read that too, and despite having never done any bolt-climbing myself, it all seemed a bit complicated and yet still sketchy. Surely even a Shunt would have been a better device for sitting on the rope, or a Stop? At least there's no teeth. Not knowing much about all this, would self-belaying using climbing rope and a better set-up be recommended anyway? I know they were trying to avoid the belayer falling asleep, but I'd personally rather have a belayer speeding their tits off than climbing it alone. At least they'd keep talking. I appreciate this is going off-topic, but it is something I'm interested in, so if it was worth splitting, I'd love to know more. The self-belaying bit, that is.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Given the short length of rope involved and the high fall factor, I suspect the difference between dynamic and static falls is fairly small.
Don't have a system where you could take a high fall factor fall.
Don't fall on an ascender.
Don't have a system where you could take a high fall factor fall.
Don't fall on an ascender.
Simon Wilson
New member
The topic is about a safety loop used for bolt climbing. D.Snaith wants to use a safety loop which he can easily distinguish amongst the clutter of stuff that you use.
The technique used for bolt climbing in caves is the same as climbing above ground. You must use a climbing rope, preferably a full rope (11mm). You also need an SRT rope for getting up and down. The usual method uses a pair of etriers and a few other bits such as a daisy chain to adjust your height when drilling. Mine are home made out of nylon cord - all different colours for identification. So there's a lot of clutter.
The important bit is the climbing rope and you run it through a carabiner on each bolt as you progress with a buddy at the bottom belaying you in the standard climbing fashion. When you go back down you retrieve the bolt hangers and carabiners off all but the last few bolts.
There are several ways for self-lining but you must belay the rope well below you to increase the length of rope and reduce the fall factor. As you progress the easiest way is to hang off the new bolt then move the srt rope and etriers up. You then tie a loop in the spare climbing rope and clip it directly to your harness. Unclip and untie the previous loop and run the climbing rope through a carabiner leaving only that on the second to top bolt. There is slack in the rope for a time but if you guess it right when you stand up there is no slack. I find this is the simplest way which keeps the clutter to a minimum. It's not difficult and quite safe.
The technique used for bolt climbing in caves is the same as climbing above ground. You must use a climbing rope, preferably a full rope (11mm). You also need an SRT rope for getting up and down. The usual method uses a pair of etriers and a few other bits such as a daisy chain to adjust your height when drilling. Mine are home made out of nylon cord - all different colours for identification. So there's a lot of clutter.
The important bit is the climbing rope and you run it through a carabiner on each bolt as you progress with a buddy at the bottom belaying you in the standard climbing fashion. When you go back down you retrieve the bolt hangers and carabiners off all but the last few bolts.
There are several ways for self-lining but you must belay the rope well below you to increase the length of rope and reduce the fall factor. As you progress the easiest way is to hang off the new bolt then move the srt rope and etriers up. You then tie a loop in the spare climbing rope and clip it directly to your harness. Unclip and untie the previous loop and run the climbing rope through a carabiner leaving only that on the second to top bolt. There is slack in the rope for a time but if you guess it right when you stand up there is no slack. I find this is the simplest way which keeps the clutter to a minimum. It's not difficult and quite safe.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
I have not directly tested this but suspect that dynamic rope would be better than static rope for short length and high Fall Factor. Some work I have done with new and dry 10mm dynamic rope using fig 8 knots and 0.75m overall length pre drop (ie a long cows tail) gave a peak force of around 5.3kN. I would expect a static rope would be several kN higher.andrewmcleod said:
