• Work at Height and Lifting Instructor - at SpanSet

    More cavers are working at SpanSet all the time, including on the Instruction Team - if you are interested in joining them, click the link.

    Find out more

Thames Water and Severn Trent Water use dowsing to detect leaks

A

asheshouse

New member
No idea how dousing rods work but I have used simple bent coat hanger type dousing rods in the past with success. I recall using them in the past to check an area at the rear of my house to check for buried services before excavating 1.0m to create a patio. Got a consistent response on one line which I couldn’t make sense of, until I looked up and realised it was directly under an overhead electric cable! So perhaps the response is due to some sort of electro magnetic anomaly?

Also tried dousing rods on Llangattwg, which resulted in the discovery of a small cave, Ogof Llungwyn. Opened up after three days digging. (1990’s).
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Every single example of dowsing 'working' can be explained by confirmation bias, because no good records of all the times it failed are recorded and the success rates are not compared against random chance.

There was a dowsing experiment run with a $10,000 prize which was attended by 19 dowsers, all of whom were convinced they would be able to detect if shallow pipe buried under the floor of a tent, with the route marked out on the floor, was either empty or had flowing water in. All the dowsers claimed, before the experiment started, that they expected at least 90% success at identifying flowing water versus empty pipes.


The results were, as they must be, that the dowsers were no better at detecting the presence of flowing water than random chance.

I don't think dowsers are dishonest, unlike in many other branches of 'paranormal' stuff. I think all the dowsers in this test were convinced they would get the money - after all, I think some of them were getting paid for their dowsing abilities. They were all wrong. It doesn't matter how much you believe it works; how convincing the 'evidence' is. All people are subject to confirmation bias (even people who are aware of it).
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
archive.org

The New Zealand Journal Of Science And Technology Vol-30 : Modriniak N. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book Source: Digital Library of India Item 2015.27619dc.contributor.author: Modriniak N.dc.date.accessioned: 2015-06-25T13:50:28Zdc.date.available:...
archive.org
finishes with this statement:

Of the seventy-five diviners tested representative of all occupations and from all parts of New Zealand, not one showed the slightest accuracy in any branch of divination. That 90 per cent, of the diviners are sincere does not lessen the harm they do.
Click to expand...
 
A

asheshouse

New member
Most of the more elaborate claims for the capability of divining are difficult/impossible to credit, however its use to identify simple anomalies close to the ground surface seems to work more often than not, using simple bent coat hangers held loosely in the hand so they are free to swing. Any sceptic should reserve judgement until they have tried it themselves. At Ogof Llungwyn the shaft dug intersected the cave passage leading away from the shake hole virtually dead centre.
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
asheshouse said:
Any sceptic should reserve judgement until they have tried it themselves.
Click to expand...
But that's the point - the effect that makes it _seem_ to work is powerful, strong and convincing - and well-understood. 'Trying it' is not rigorous and will not provide robust evidence, just anecdote.

When actually tested statistically, it has never been shown to be better than chance.

The other complication to note is that in many cases people may have visual cues, from years of experience of poking around caves and digs, that they aren't consciously aware of. It's not the dowsing.
 
A

andybrooks

Member
You also can't prove the negative. If your dowsing indicates a cave, you cannot be proven wrong without quarrying away all of the potentially cave-bearing rock. So you wind up with a list of successes and a (usually longer) list of "unproven".
 
MarkS

MarkS

Moderator
andrewmcleod said:
in many cases people may have visual cues, from years of experience of poking around caves and digs, that they aren't consciously aware of. It's not the dowsing.
Click to expand...
If it enables people to tap into subconscious cues, I suppose you could formulate an argument that it does work. :unsure:

I'll not be heading out with old coat hangers any time soon though.
 
A

Andy Farrant

Active member
Here is a snippet from an old borehole log on Mendip near Priddy
Dale Farm [ST 52230 51260] (BGS borehole record [ST55SW13] see http://scans.bgs.ac.uk/sobi_scans/boreholes/388008/images/14834592.html

Well at Dale Farm Priddy for ?? Commissioners. Dug by F G Clements Ltd, and later filled in.

"This well was bored really in order to try to locate the water course forming the overflow from Priddy Spout and the spot was located by a Diviner on the lowest part of Dale Farm, and on physical as well as water diviners indications it looked a likely spot but a 800 ft boring utterly failed to find it. The boring was in broken Carboniferous Limestone all down and the conclusion is that this water, after leaving Priddy Spout, which is really a conveyed pipe line supply from Priddy spring head, loses itself in the limestone and joins the natural overflow course from the spring itself which falls into the Mendip cave known as Swildons Hole and make an abrupt drop, probably towards Rodney Stoke, though some authorities rather incline to think that it goes to wards Cheddar caves."

See also the notes Willie Stanton made in Mendip: The Complete Caves and a View of the Hills (1977).

In my opinion, don't waste your time, and don't even think about drilling an 800' deep borehole on the basis of a diviner.... It is easy enough to test under controlled conditions and has been found wanting.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Andrewmcleod wrote: "The other complication to note is that in many cases people may have visual cues, from years of experience of poking around caves and digs, that they aren't consciously aware of. It's not the dowsing.".


I'm glad you said that (and I agree). A certain person we tested the effectiveness of as a diviner arrived with good prior knowledge of the layout of the known caves in the area in question. (Uncannily good; it was as if he'd read up on it just beforehand.) When he started he chose to begin from a known cave entrance, from where he "divined" in the general direction of another known cave which even a basic understanding of cave developement would suggest is the likely route of the newly discovered passages of ours. Unsurprisingly, he strode confidently off in the expected direction.

But our survey showed the passage headed at 180 degrees away from his dowsed "survey". His demonstration of the "effectiveness" of dowsing was hardly a blind test - and he rarely refers to this one when discussing his "successes".


On another occasion, I witnessed the late Monty Grainger dowsing, up on the Ingleborough Allotment. (Monty passed away many years ago so I'm comfortable in naming him; those who knew him would agree he was something of a character.) It was when Lizard Pot was being dug into. Monty strode off and the rods twirled as he went over the line of the cave as shown by the survey, which he genuinely hadn't seen. I was (as a young and gullible caver) rather impressed. It was only later that he let slip his knowledge of where the Rift Pot fault lay - and of course it was a fair bet that Lizard Pot was closely associated with it. This fact had been well discussed before the day of the dowsing in conversations which Monty would almost certainly have heard. But he was convinced of his strong "reaction".


I have a genuinely open mind on dowsing and if it can be shown to work (through proper experimentation) I'll take more notice of it. But as any "results" are clearly so unreliable, my current opinion is that the method is worse than useless as it merely provides a distraction from the truth and clouds logical thinking.

The above is said with absolutely no intended offence to anyone who uses dowsing.
 
M

Martin Laverty

Member
On Saturday, 11 Feb, The Guardian published a well-balanced article in response to the articles which prompted this thread. It was written by their Science Editor, featuring her geologist (and dowser) mother, a Professor of Anomalistic Psychology championing the idiomotor effect and repeating the "every properly conducted double-blind test of dowsing doesn't support the idea that dowsing really works" line, and a 'professional water diviner and archaeological dowser' who has sufficient testimonials to his success that he doesn't need to advertise - albeit he has a website [ http://www.johnh2obaker.co.uk/ ], and includes the noncommittal results of her own attempt to dowse.

The article doesn't cater for the argument that dowsing can't work because there is no known mechanism. Einstein is reported [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dowsing/Archive_1 ] to have rejected this as ...'unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which
shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.' in private correspondence (in German) in 1946. Who now rejects continental drift for lack of a mechanism?

For the article, together with older pieces and readers' letters, browse https://www.google.co.uk/search?as_q=dowsing&as_sitesearch=www.theguardian.com
 
2xw

2xw

Active member
I'm fascinated by the idea of dowsing. Does the size of the coat hanger wires matter? Would a scaff bar, adequately freely wobbly but mounted to a Ford Focus, locate sewers? Would two bent needles balanced above a piece of wet clay be in a frenzy of twitching? Can dowsing rods be attached to a hat? Can they detect the level of dehydration in a human body? What would happen if you went dowsing whilst at sea? If metal rods twitch above water, why don't helicopters crash in rivers?
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Does anyone else remember a BCRA Conference at Manchester many years ago when a well known northern caver repeatedly attempted to locate a sledge hammer head beneath one of three buckets using the dowsing method? It was in front of a packed audience.

Let's just say that said audience went away less than impressed by the demostration.
 
S

Steve Clark

Active member
As alluded to above, I reckon dowsing is just a physical representation of 'gut-feeling'.

Gut feeling is a thing. It comes from experience, observation, sub-conscious processing, other peoples' body language, tone of voice and all sorts of other subtle clues.

I've dug a few trenches in my professional life. My gut feeling would be that the leaking pipe is somewhere between the pavement stop tap and one side of the front door. Likely under the puddle.
 
G

grahams

Active member
2xw said:
I'm fascinated by the idea of dowsing. Does the size of the coat hanger wires matter? Would a scaff bar, adequately freely wobbly but mounted to a Ford Focus, locate sewers? Would two bent needles balanced above a piece of wet clay be in a frenzy of twitching? Can dowsing rods be attached to a hat? Can they detect the level of dehydration in a human body? What would happen if you went dowsing whilst at sea? If metal rods twitch above water, why don't helicopters crash in rivers?
Click to expand...
Furthermore, when the rods wobble, does that indicate that the intended dowsing target is directly beneath one's feet or at some angle, and if so then what angle?
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Pitlamp said:
my current opinion is that the method is worse than useless as it merely provides a distraction from the truth and clouds logical thinking.
Click to expand...

Depending on the context, dowsing is certainly worse than useless, it's dangerous.

For those who don't remember this scandal in the news 10 years ago, this is worth a read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896

Of further interest is the 1936 log of this borehole in Shepton Mallet where we dived a few years ago (Page 5 and 6 give the below narrative of the dowsing) http://scans.bgs.ac.uk/sobi_scans/boreholes/390336/images/10714388.html

1676543468143.png

1676543510924.png


I'll refrain from passing judgement on the success of the dowsing.

For interest, some video from Adit C can be viewed here: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/saturday-night-under-mendip.27996/#post-344602
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top