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Thames Water and Severn Trent Water use dowsing to detect leaks

Andrew N

Active member
I was surprised to read in The Times today that water companies have been using dowsing to find leaks, or at least some of their engineers seem to think that is what they are doing. I thought it was only cavers that subscribed to this 'interesting' technique...

I've quoted the article below as it needs a subscription to read.


Thames Water and Severn Trent Water still use dowsing rods to hunt for leaks, even though scientific studies show that they do not work.

Water dowsing, also known as water divining which dates back to at least the 16th century, involves a person holding two L-shaped or one Y-shaped rod in front of them. The rods, sometimes known as witching sticks or wands, are supposed to twitch or cross to indicate the presence of water underground.

There is no known force in physics that would account for how buried water would move the rods, and scientific trials have shown that dowsing is no more effective than guessing.

Experts have asked Ofwat, the water regulator, to stop companies spending money on it. Thames Water, which supplies 2.6 billion litres a day, has admitted that about a quarter, or 650 million litres, is lost in leaks. Severn Trent loses about 400 million litres a day. Last year’s official declarations of drought focused attention on the poor state of water infrastructure.

The two companies told New Scientist that their engineers used dowsing rods to find leaks; 15 water companies told the magazine they had abandoned the method. A spokesman for Thames Water said dowsing rods were used to find leaks, and to verify results from other equipment. “Some people they work for, some people they don’t. If they work for you, you come to trust it,” he said. “People are sceptical of it, and I was sceptical when I first saw it. I started using them because I saw someone else use them and I have found leaks.”

Severn Trent said that a small number of its “expert engineers . . . may still carry dowsing rods with their equipment.” However, it added that it did not issue them as it did not consider dowsing rods to be effective.

Experts have attributed belief in dowsing to confirmation bias: the tendency to forget times when the method failed and celebrate it when it appears to work.

Professor Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at the University of Hertfordshire, said that it was plausible that some dowsers picked up on signs from the environment, such as green patches of vegetation, to be led to water sources. “I’m not sure that there’s any evidence that this happens, but it doesn’t seem impossible,” he said.
“In studies where there are no environmental cues, it fails.” he added.

Something known as the ideomotor effect may also play a part in the phenomenon of dowsing. This happens when somebody moves without meaning to and might explain why divining rods seem to twitch and move of their own accord.

The use of water dowsing by water companies made the headlines in 2017 when a couple in Warwickshire called out engineers from Severn Trent and were surprised to see them “walking around holding two bent tent pegs to locate a pipe” near their home in Stratford-upon-Avon. They told their daughter Sally Le Page, who was a scientist at the University of Oxford.

Ten of the big 12 water companies in Britain told her at the time that they were still using the technique. She described them as trying to “use magic to do their jobs”.
 
It's an odd thing, but clearly people still think/thought it has some purpose.

Here's Caleb Wade's masterful NCRMS monograph on the subject from 1961;


I think there is a passage in Stump Cross or Mongo Gill called Caleb's Cringes after his contribution to explorations.

I did try it once when I was at Ironbridge in the 1980's when we were tracing the water transfer pipes from dams in the valley used for water power and the sticks (inside biro tubes) did give some twitching at a fairly defined location, whether it was the water, iron work or just happenstance I don't know but it was fun and amused the others in the group.

Jim
 

alanw

Well-known member
Original New Scientist article (needs subscription), but enough free to see this link by Sally Le Page (quoted, but not linked to by The Times). Oddly, I can see the whole of the Times article. Sally's article from 2017 (well worth a read) indicated that most water companies then believed in magic.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
No wonder water bills are high if they're paying folk to waste time on such silliness.

Andrew N; you wrote: "I thought it was only cavers that subscribed to this 'interesting' technique...".

There's lots of us who know better - make that "some" cavers. ;-)
 

Andrew N

Active member
No wonder water bills are high if they're paying folk to waste time on such silliness.

Andrew N; you wrote: "I thought it was only cavers that subscribed to this 'interesting' technique...".

There's lots of us who know better - make that "some" cavers. ;-)
I was hoping this might spark some friendly debate and it's off to a good start - I wonder if someone will come along to defend this technique with which they have presumably found many caves 😁
 

shotlighter

Active member
25 years ago now but when Newcastle Brough Council were in the process of adopting our road, I saw a chap walking round the estate with dowsing rods. Fascinated, I had to ask what he was doing. Turned out that the drains were not where the estate plans said they were, so the council had hired him to locate them!
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
It's been discussed before on here a few times Andrew N. One exponent I know is quick to point out a few "successes" but is usually notably quiet on the various failures. I'm not going to elaborate on here as he's a pleasant fellow and I'd not want to say anything against him in public.

The "technique" has not stood up to rigorous scrutiny in a great many tests. So it has the potential to distract cavers from proper evidence, when looking for new discoveries. I think that makes it worse than just useless.

The late Trevor Ford once wrote a very good article about how it doesn't work, backed up by a large number of references. Can't remember where; it might have been in a PDMHS publication. Or possibly BSA or CRG. I have a copy somewhere but it'd be a major undertaking to find it.
 
I was hoping this might spark some friendly debate and it's off to a good start - I wonder if someone will come along to defend this technique with which they have presumably found many caves 😁
I think you'll find that "friendly debate" and "dowsing" are mutually exclusive terms if you do a bit of searching: they certainly have been in this forum in the past.

For what it's worth, I have found cave entrances (previously known and unknown) using rods which had eluded me in previous 'planned' searches and they certainly give a dowser an interesting non(?)random walk. However, only a moderate proportion of people seem to get reproducible results, probably most get 'something', a few get nothing at all - which is what you might expect really: how many have perfect eyesight, hearing, ...
 

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
I have an uncle who was an avid caver in the late 1950s and 60s who went on to work for "The water board" (actually in his time more than one). I've heard various accounts of people using dowsing rods to find drains. No idea if there's any evidence that it works, but I've definitely heard stories of it being used at work since way back
 

StoneyGraham

New member
Ive seen dowsing work on an archaeological dig on longis common in alderney, it accurately showed above ground the location of stretches of roman walls (pre-excavation). After seeing it in action i've used it myself to find an old drain in one of my fields.
There's theories about how when you walk over the area that you think is most promising you subconsciously twitch and it causes the rods to move, but i disagree as have seen it done blindfolded.

It's much more likely that theres some stimulus in the earth that can move the rods. But that some areas are too geologically complex to find a particular feature amongst many others.

I know many people are very passionately against dowsing, but the way i see it theres no conclusive proof either way and if you're searching for a lost feature its worth a shot if you've no other alternatives.
 

Hunter

Member
I used dowsing rods (bent welding rods) in the past to find “lost” water pipes in parks I worked in.
All I can say is it worked for me and saved a lot of random digging.
 

Ed

Active member
I've used it at work to find drains and culverts.

A now retired colleague was better with his dowsing rod at finding drains - especially dry land drains etc than fancy modern electronics were
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
As I recall, last time it was debated here, somebody threw down a challenge to prove it once and for all.

The challenge still stands...

Chris.
 

Andrew N

Active member
It's much more likely that theres some stimulus in the earth that can move the rods. But that some areas are too geologically complex to find a particular feature amongst many others.
I struggle to find a completely hypothetical force which is outside of our current model of physics and with zero evidence to back it up “much more likely” than coincidence or psychological influence - especially after studies have been done on it and failed to find any evidence that it is better than pure luck - but everyone is entitled to their view!
 

StoneyGraham

New member
I struggle to find a completely hypothetical force which is outside of our current model of physics and with zero evidence to back it up “much more likely” than coincidence or psychological influence - especially after studies have been done on it and failed to find any evidence that it is better than pure luck - but everyone is entitled to their view!
I was quite optimistic with my probably yardstick there.

If your live depended on it and you only had a coat hanger and some pliers i'm sure you'd give it a crack though.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Most 'paranormal' beliefs are sufficiently slippery and/or poorly defined that it's hard to unambiguously disprove them.

Dowsing is a pleasant exception. It's been robustly shown under rigourous experimental conditions to be no more successful than random chance.

Furthermore, we understand quite well the psychological factors that lead to the apparently unconscious motions of the rods (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon) *and* the powerful confirmation bias (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) when positive results are found.
 
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