The deadly croll

[Dave Tyson]

If caving shops and retailers (Inglesport, Starless river et al) took a lead and pushed alternatives (after explaining why the 'new' croll is unsatisfactory)  then a bit more pressure could be brought to bear on Petzl.  I still have a couple of the original crolls which are fine, but some new club members had to get the new ones which IMHO are too small and awkward to use reverse prussiking if you have big hands.

Dave

 

[tamarmole]

Whilst I think we would all concede that the "average" caver / mine explorer will try to eke out kit as long as possible; possibly longer than the manufacturer's recommendation, this does not alter the fact that the failure mode on the wear plate is potentially lethal.

Having looked at the info on the Petzl website it would appear that Petzl are aware that Crolls used in real world situations have been worn to knife edges on a number of occasions.  Surely a responsible and proactive manufacturer like Petzl should be actively responding to this sort of feedback from users and be designing kit which reflects real world use patterns.

A responsible and proactive manufacturer like Petzl used to be would have responded accordingly. However in the days of corporate accountants, cost reduction and managing risk, I doubt you'll see the response you would expect.
Only thing that can be done is to share this info as much as possible and not buy their products.

It's a shame, but I think you are right. 

Personally I wouldn't touch the 2013 Croll  with a ten foot pole.  When I replaced my old style Croll last year I bought a Turbochest and haven't looked back.

 

[Tangent_tracker]

I personally love the new Croll. great size for me personally even though my hands aren't small by any means! It is super smooth and in fact the Turbo Ascender I borrowed was not only not actually any smoother at all in Derbyshire caves (I am sure it is great until mud gets in the rollers!) but the cord on mine actually caught in the gate and proceeded to unclip half way up Leviathan!

I have never felt so unsafe in any caving situation as I did after that point!

It would seem it is worth checking the wear on the new Croll and be concerned if you see uneven wear at the top of plate and bottom of teeth. I for one have not been put off and will continue using but of course will be vigilant of the overall wear of the device.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Thank you people. At last more people seem to be starting to understand what the problem is.

Unlike all earlier Crolls this design becomes dangerous when it wears. This problem is compounded by the fact that the new design wears out a lot quicker than earlier designs, despite Petzl's spurious claim that it is more durable. But what really makes Petzl guilty of negligence, in my opinion, is that they have produced a device which is impossible for the user to inspect.

In January I pointed out to Petzl that they are expecting users to inspect a device that they cannot effectively inspect. I suggested that they should recall the Croll and that they might want to consider the legal implications. If somebody is killed and Petzl end up being charged with criminal negligence I would offer to be a witness.

 

[Pegasus]

too small and awkward to use reverse prussiking if you have big hands.

or little hands - check out my comment about bring some (very heavy!) rubbish out of Ireby on the cave conservation thread - I had to reverse prussik and it was as awkward as hell - I thought it was me at the time, hmmm maybe not  :-\

 

[tamarmole]

Thank you people. At last more people seem to be starting to understand what the problem is.

Unlike all earlier Crolls this design becomes dangerous when it wears. This problem is compounded by the fact that the new design wears out a lot quicker than earlier designs, despite Petzl's spurious claim that it is more durable. But what really makes Petzl guilty of negligence, in my opinion, is that they have produced a device which is impossible for the user to inspect.

In January I pointed out to Petzl that they are expecting users to inspect a device that they cannot effectively inspect. I suggested that they should recall the Croll and that they might want to consider the legal implications. If somebody is killed and Petzl end up being charged with criminal negligence I would offer to be a witness.

Informative document - would you have any objections if it was uploaded on Aditnow?

 

[royfellows]

If somebody is killed and Petzl end up being charged with criminal negligence I would offer to be a witness.

They could be charged with Corporate Manslaughter which is a criminal offence in addition to civil action for damages due to negligence.
There is a principal whereby the manufacturer of something has responsibility beyond the retailer even though there is no direct relationship between manufacturer and retail customer.

I find it appalling that such a thing should be sold by a comapany such as Petzl

 

[RichardB1983]

So presumably if Petzl won't change their overall design - perhaps if the last few fractions of a mm of the wear plate were a different colour metal - that would act as a clear visual inspection clue to retire - instead of the guesswork that we currently have to do?

 

[Antwan]

Should this issue be notified to trading standards? At least we could get them removed from sale in the UK

 

[pwhole]

Here's my Croll and Basic, close-up - I'm glad I retained these now. Note the cam teeth are very worn at the top end, and the backplate maillon-hole is very worn indeed. Granted, this is something I can easily inspect, but it went from 'fine' to 'worrying' very, very quickly. I've switched to an aluminium harness crab to try and minimise this in future, though the old Croll lasted twice as long as this with less wear on the hole, but then it was thicker material. Note that my stainless plate is fine - 'as far as it can be realistically inspected'.

However, even more bizarre is the new model Basic, also now binned. 50% of the teeth are worn completely flat, worse than the Croll, and that was newer than the Croll. Surely pushing an ascender up a rope can't be done 'improperly'? That's just weak steel IMO. But not funny when both devices are slipping on a rope-to rope transfer 90m off the deck.

 

[royfellows]

Should this issue be notified to trading standards? At least we could get them removed from sale in the UK

That is a good idea

 

[Simon Wilson]

Feel free to upload my document wherever you want.

I've spoken to quite a number of people about the 2013 Croll. Some have worn out the cam before the wear plate. I guess that is down to climbing style and possibly differences in centre of gravity.

I also wore out the cam on a new Basic hand ascender very quickly. The crucial difference in the design of the cams on all new Petzl ascenders is that they have changed from a hardened carbon steel cam to a stainless steel cam which wears more quickly. The rate of wear is not the problem though. If Petzl want to make ascenders that wear out more quickly that is an acceptable commercial decision not negligence.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Should this issue be notified to trading standards? At least we could get them removed from sale in the UK

That is a good idea

I thought about that and decided I couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I have emailed Petzl and all I got was them blaming me for not retiring it sooner. I posted on Facebook and got a load of flak from ignorant people. I decided that if Petzl refused to listen to me then all I needed to do was wait. It's like global warming - there will come a time when it becomes so obvious that they can't continue denying it. I have said in several places that I hope Petzl start acting responsibly before somebody is killed.

 

[royfellows]

It's like global warming - there will come a time when it becomes so obvious that they can't continue denying it.

Hope you not holding your breath!


The Petzl thing is something that a lot of people including me will back you on. One person complains to Trading Standards and its just one, if we say mount a petition or something.

We are aware of the problem and have duty to do something surely?

 

[Alex]

We can easily we just don't buy the buggers anymore. I know my replacement is going to be something different.

 

[NewStuff]

We can easily we just don't buy the buggers anymore. I know my replacement is going to be something different.

This.
Do your complaining with your money. It's the only thing a company listens to when it's that size. As already seen, they are blaming the user, not the product.

I won't buy a Croll again, and from what's said about the Basic etc, the only thing I would consider is a Stop. There are alternatives to the Stop/Simple as there are to the Croll, if you want to boycott Petzl products altogether.

If we stop buying them, and make it known *why* we have stopped buying them, it may give them enough of a dip in sales to start asking questions.

 

[royfellows]

We can easily we just don't buy the buggers anymore. I know my replacement is going to be something different.

Well I wont be buying one, but a lot of people will go out and buy on the name without doing any research.

"Research", now there is a word, if people only did this all scams would grind to a halt, but off topic.

I still think something should be done and there is power in numbers.

 

[rhychydwr1]

If somebody is killed and Petzl end up being charged with criminal negligence I would offer to be a witness.


They could be charged with Corporate Manslaughter which is a criminal offence in addition to civil action for damages due to negligence.
There is a principal whereby the manufacturer of something has responsibility beyond the retailer even though there is no direct relationship between manufacturer and retail customer.

I find it appalling that such a thing should be sold by a company such as Petzl

I was going to say something similar  but did not like to gloat over the death of a caver.

 

[droid]

I'm neither a qualified engineer nor a qualifies metallurgist, but the problem especially with the teeth) seems to be poor quality metal.

Would this not be a suitable complaint to Trading standard for anyone that COULD be arsed to complain?

Totally agree with NewSuff's comment though. (Hope NewStuff and Jane are sat down.....lol)

On a pragmatic note, Trading standards banning the sale of the device in the UK wouldn't make much difference to a global business like Petzl, so it might be a largely ineffective policy in world terms....

 

[NewStuff]

Totally agree with NewSuff's comment though. (Hope NewStuff and Jane are sat down.....lol)

I wasn't, I felt dizzy, fell over...

Can I get a claim?  :tease: