The deadly croll
- Thread starter Leclused
- Start date
Simon Wilson
New member
ian.p said:
Petzl make an integrated Croll that doesn't have the wear plate and it's made out of 4mm plate like the earlier Crolls. Selling it separately would be a quick and easy solution to the problem. Are you listening Petzl?
bograt
Active member
Simon Wilson said:ian.p said:
Petzl make an integrated Croll that doesn't have the wear plate and it's made out of 4mm plate like the earlier Crolls. Selling it separately would be a quick and easy solution to the problem. Are you listening Petzl?
Hmm, could you pencil in a rope-route through that for us please Simon?
Madness
New member
Thanks Simon for your informative report.
Perhaps it's time for the caving community to flex it's muscles a little and force Petzl to do something about it. Are Lyon still the importer for Petzl products? Perhaps Lyon should lobby Petzl on our behalf. Perhaps the BCA should contact Petzl and express concern over the issue.
I will be replacing my wife's new Croll with something safe and fit for purpose .
Talking of 'fit for purpose ', isn't that a term used in UK consumer law? Perhaps we need to prove to the Trading Standards Authority that the Croll is not appropriate for it's intended use.
Perhaps it's time for the caving community to flex it's muscles a little and force Petzl to do something about it. Are Lyon still the importer for Petzl products? Perhaps Lyon should lobby Petzl on our behalf. Perhaps the BCA should contact Petzl and express concern over the issue.
I will be replacing my wife's new Croll with something safe and fit for purpose .
Talking of 'fit for purpose ', isn't that a term used in UK consumer law? Perhaps we need to prove to the Trading Standards Authority that the Croll is not appropriate for it's intended use.
royfellows
Well-known member
Just a thought
If the Chinese were manufacturing something like dangerous Croll, and someone was importing them, there would be all hell.
Just think about this.
If the Chinese were manufacturing something like dangerous Croll, and someone was importing them, there would be all hell.
Just think about this.
Simon Wilson
New member
A discussion on the Basque caving forum after the same problem was experienced twice.
http://www.euskalespeleo.com/Foro/viewtopic.php?p=1295&sid=f9a989661dba7c7c15995c2e6c44942c
http://www.euskalespeleo.com/Foro/viewtopic.php?p=1295&sid=f9a989661dba7c7c15995c2e6c44942c
Very good photos too, I'd been struggling to visualise the problem if I'm honest. I thought the Petzl webpage was a seriously over used Croll but despite fancying the weight loss from the version of the Croll I have, it's off to an Anthron, Fixe, Camp, Singing Rock, Climbing Technology, Kong pretty much any other manufacturer I can think of. You can get a Fixe chest ascender for under ?30 online, having been a petzl user for all of my time caving, I will certainly be investigating other manufacturers for pretty much everything!
And of course the page maintained by Gary Storick is worth a view
And of course the page maintained by Gary Storick is worth a view
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Anyone know if there's an official statement from the FFS about this? (Bit busy as I type so no time to look.) I can't imagine Petzl ignoring the opinion of the far greater number of cavers on home soil, as opposed to the relatively small number in the UK.
I've trusted Petzl equipment ever since it began to appear in our country, as it's always been extremely well designed formerly, if expensive. So I admit to finding it very hard to consider buying alternatives in future. But I confess to watching this one fairly closely . . . .
I've trusted Petzl equipment ever since it began to appear in our country, as it's always been extremely well designed formerly, if expensive. So I admit to finding it very hard to consider buying alternatives in future. But I confess to watching this one fairly closely . . . .
Simon Wilson
New member
I can find no mention of it on the FFS website but Italians, Germans and Spaniards have all been talking about it. I wonder if there is a bit of patriotism at play.
The report on the Basque forum is particularly interesting to me for two reasons. Firstly, they correctly identify the main problem as being that the Croll cannot be inspected because you can't see the thickness of the wear plate. They say, " Efecto que no es f?cil de controlar visualmente hasta que surge el astillamiento en plena actividad." Which roughly translated says that the effect cannot be easily visually monitored until the splinter is fully active. In other words the first you know about it is when the Croll jams, which happened to two of them. They say that they prefer earlier Crolls because the wear is easy to detect. Secondly, like me they are also very disappointed with the response from Petzl.
I was also a loyal and confident user of Petzl gear since it first appeared. However, I now think Petzl have really lost the plot. The level of engineering expertise involved in producing the B16BAA Croll appears to be wholly inadequate. This is confirmed by their claim that the wear plate increases durability. It obviously will not increases durability but will do the opposite. If they claimed that it reduces friction that would be true but they don't make that claim. They have not done any testing of the wear or they would not make the risible claim that the plate increases durability.
I suspect that the addition of the wear plate has more to do with marketing than engineering. It makes the Croll look a bit more high-tech but it is an illusion and it makes Petzl look like engineering amateurs.
The report on the Basque forum is particularly interesting to me for two reasons. Firstly, they correctly identify the main problem as being that the Croll cannot be inspected because you can't see the thickness of the wear plate. They say, " Efecto que no es f?cil de controlar visualmente hasta que surge el astillamiento en plena actividad." Which roughly translated says that the effect cannot be easily visually monitored until the splinter is fully active. In other words the first you know about it is when the Croll jams, which happened to two of them. They say that they prefer earlier Crolls because the wear is easy to detect. Secondly, like me they are also very disappointed with the response from Petzl.
I was also a loyal and confident user of Petzl gear since it first appeared. However, I now think Petzl have really lost the plot. The level of engineering expertise involved in producing the B16BAA Croll appears to be wholly inadequate. This is confirmed by their claim that the wear plate increases durability. It obviously will not increases durability but will do the opposite. If they claimed that it reduces friction that would be true but they don't make that claim. They have not done any testing of the wear or they would not make the risible claim that the plate increases durability.
I suspect that the addition of the wear plate has more to do with marketing than engineering. It makes the Croll look a bit more high-tech but it is an illusion and it makes Petzl look like engineering amateurs.
royfellows
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Seconded, good work.
JasonC
Well-known member
Yes, indeed, thanks.
Two further questions spring to mind:
1. I assume this discussion applies to all crolls sold separately since the new, smaller size version was brought out. I have one of these and tried to find 'B16BAA' on it somewhere to see if I should worry. Needless to say, I didn't, so I assume I should
I couldn't see any defects on the wear plate (but then I wouldn't, would I?). I probably do a lot less SRT than most who have posted here, but how much is 'too much' ?
2. It has been suggested using a pantin increases the risk of this type of failure. I don't understand why this is - surely the upward thrust from two feet in a foot-loop is much the same as from one in a foot-loop and one with a pantin ? What am I missing ?
Thanks again....
Two further questions spring to mind:
1. I assume this discussion applies to all crolls sold separately since the new, smaller size version was brought out. I have one of these and tried to find 'B16BAA' on it somewhere to see if I should worry. Needless to say, I didn't, so I assume I should
I couldn't see any defects on the wear plate (but then I wouldn't, would I?). I probably do a lot less SRT than most who have posted here, but how much is 'too much' ?
2. It has been suggested using a pantin increases the risk of this type of failure. I don't understand why this is - surely the upward thrust from two feet in a foot-loop is much the same as from one in a foot-loop and one with a pantin ? What am I missing ?
Thanks again....
Simon Wilson
New member
Tamarmole is right about Pantins. Everybody wears Crolls differently but generally speaking most people I have spoken to agree that using a Pantin increases the rate of wear. People say that if you keep the rope straight you will wear the Croll less. I think if you do a lot of SRT you will naturally tend to develop a more efficient technique which reduces friction and therefore wear.
The B16BAA Croll is the model with the wear plate brought out in 2013.
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Ascenders/CROLL#.V7i37zWgwbo
The B16BAA Croll is the model with the wear plate brought out in 2013.
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Ascenders/CROLL#.V7i37zWgwbo
Disgusted from Cornwall.
New member
"I was also a loyal and confident user of Petzl gear since it first appeared. However, I now think Petzl have really lost the plot."
This is pretty serious news for Petzl. I operate within quite a large community of mine explorers, cavers and rope access professionals. The above is the genuine sentiment.
"They are moving away from caving and more into the clean and safe world of rope access" I heard. I remember squeezing the new basic in my hand and it flexing. I remember thinking "What the hell?"
I will continue to buy their racks, purely because I am used to using the exact model.
If it was my company and people were giving me hell on the internet about the serious shortcomings of my product, I'd get someone on the case and think about a product recall and taking a hit. These things are probably about $5US a piece from China (where I expect they are made). They need to handle this problem properly, otherwise it will speak volumes about the company and the resulting bad press will damage their reputation and sales of adequate products.
The fact that their PPE is a "potato peeler" is just shocking and totally unacceptable.
PETZL. Where is your input on this matter?
This is pretty serious news for Petzl. I operate within quite a large community of mine explorers, cavers and rope access professionals. The above is the genuine sentiment.
"They are moving away from caving and more into the clean and safe world of rope access" I heard. I remember squeezing the new basic in my hand and it flexing. I remember thinking "What the hell?"
I will continue to buy their racks, purely because I am used to using the exact model.
If it was my company and people were giving me hell on the internet about the serious shortcomings of my product, I'd get someone on the case and think about a product recall and taking a hit. These things are probably about $5US a piece from China (where I expect they are made). They need to handle this problem properly, otherwise it will speak volumes about the company and the resulting bad press will damage their reputation and sales of adequate products.
The fact that their PPE is a "potato peeler" is just shocking and totally unacceptable.
PETZL. Where is your input on this matter?
cavemanmike
Well-known member
petzl's main income is probably industry lead ppe so only has to last 1 year before it has to be replaced so from a marketing point of view they probably don't give a toss(unfortunately) :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Gollum
Member
I can't see why we are concerned about Petzl listening to cavers. If we don't like their products then we buy from elsewhere. There are loads of manufactures/brands out there. Petzl had the British market for far too long because we didn't know any better. I personally don't buy much Petzl stuff anymore because i can find better and cheaper from other manufactures
