The long fight for rights

[Simon Wilson]

- three cheers for Benny Goodman and the Ramblers.

Benny Goodman might have been involved albeit in a minor way - it was the right era.

 

[shotlighter]

- three cheers for Benny Goodman and the Ramblers.

Benny Goodman might have been involved albeit in a minor way - it was the right era.

He'd certainly of jazzed things up. 

 

[Rhys]

Well that's good to know. My main experience is of the Shropshire hills, Snowdonia and the Brecon Beacons.

But you didn't have a legal right to be there. Maybe you were never thrown off but I'm sure other people will have been ejected from land in some of those areas.

I reckon there are probably common law rights to access in some upland areas, but let's not go there...

I think my experience is probably due to different land use across the regions. It would seem that sheep farmers were less bothered by walkers than grouse people were.

Rhys

 

[paul]

- three cheers for Benny Goodman and the Ramblers.

Benny Goodman might have been involved albeit in a minor way - it was the right era.

He'd certainly of jazzed things up. 

I thought Simon was doing down Benny Rothman's leading role in the Mass Trespass until I read your post and the different surname. 

 

[paul]

I can remember being in Northern Ireland a few years ago and looking at walking part westerly section of the "Ulster Way", which was being promoted in leaflets.  The first stretch I came to, there was a new house built right across the track which large notices saying"Keep out" and "No Access".  It didn't seem worth bothering if the landowner could do this on a so-called right of way which the government expressly promoted as a walking route.

Don't know how different it is in the Irish Republic but I have found walking in Co. Clare sometimes difficult.  I once found a that a walled footpath (which appeared to be a right of way and was officially signposted to a destination), had been completely filled, wall to wall, with cuttings from thorny bushes over a stretch of 100 yards close to the end.  This made it completely impossible to carry on to the signposted destination and, since I couldn't climb over the walls, also meant back-tracking for several miles to find a way out.

It did seem in both cases that, whilst the law said you have rights, the landowner could do whatever he wanted to in order to stop you.

So, while we believe CRoW gives us rights (with which we must accept the responsibility to behave reasonably), it could happen that we still lose out if the rights are not enforced.

Unfortunately, things in the Irish Republic are quite different to most of Europe and probably are the most restrictive:

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/recreational_activities_in_ireland/sport_and_leisure/walking_and_rambling_in_ireland.html

Right of way

There is a distinction in Irish law between public and private rights of way. A public right of way is a person's right of passage along a road or path, even if the road or path is not in public ownership. There are very few registered public rights of way that are not maintained public roads.

A private right of way is the right to enter onto private lands, but only for the purposes of gaining access to or exiting from another piece of land. It is typically an arrangement between neighbours.

The waymarked trails are permissive routes that have been developed with the landowners? agreement and are not rights of way. Even access to Coillte lands is permissive and you do not have a right of access.

Although, years ago some friends of mine were walking on Macgillycuddy's Reeks in Co. Kerry and bumped into a rather distinguished gentlemen who announced himself as "Macgillycuddy of the Reeks". He was the landowner and was quite happy for them to be walking there!

 

[cooleycr]

In October this year, we were staying at a B&B in County Antrim that had stables and, being keen riders, we asked the lady where she rode and were quite surprised to hear that she is unable to ride along the local bridleway as the farmer has chained and padlocked the gates as he 'doesn't like horses', forcing here instead to ride out along a very narrow country lane to get anywhere safe to ride...

 

[royfellows]

People should familiarise themselves with the Highways Act 1980.

The deliberate blocking of a highway (Right of Way) is a criminal offence under Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980. Offenders can face a fine and criminal record.

There is no reason to confine interference to physical interference. (To a Public Right of Way) An object can get in the way of the right of passage or other amenity rights because of its psychological impact.? Herrick v Kidner and Somerset County Council, 2014.

Section 130A-D of the Highways Act 1980(2)) empowers a member of the public to serve a notice on the highway authority to get an illegal obstruction removed from a highway.

There is an interesting battle looming at Dinas
http://www.cambrianmines.co.uk/NAL/Alternative_Route.html

I wonder who will come out on top?

 

[paul]

That's assuming that the bridleway was a Public Right of Way. In Ireland (and Northern Ireland) there are far fewer Public Rights of Way than in Great Britain, sadly.

 

[mrodoc]

In October this year, we were staying at a B&B in County Antrim that had stables and, being keen riders, we asked the lady where she rode and were quite surprised to hear that she is unable to ride along the local bridleway as the farmer has chained and padlocked the gates as he 'doesn't like horses', forcing here instead to ride out along a very narrow country lane to get anywhere safe to ride...

I posted elsewhere regarding rights of way in Eire. My wife was most disappointed when she went riding (with a stables) and instead of galloping  across the wide open Burren found herself mostly on roads.

 

[2xw]

People should familiarise themselves with the Highways Act 1980.

The deliberate blocking of a highway (Right of Way) is a criminal offence under Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980. Offenders can face a fine and criminal record.

There is no reason to confine interference to physical interference. (To a Public Right of Way) An object can get in the way of the right of passage or other amenity rights because of its psychological impact.? Herrick v Kidner and Somerset County Council, 2014.

Section 130A-D of the Highways Act 1980(2)) empowers a member of the public to serve a notice on the highway authority to get an illegal obstruction removed from a highway.

There is an interesting battle looming at Dinas
http://www.cambrianmines.co.uk/NAL/Alternative_Route.html

I wonder who will come out on top?

Nearly always the highways agency. I wonder if the ramblers know this ROW has been illegally blocked

 

[Simon Wilson]

People should familiarise themselves with the Highways Act 1980.

The deliberate blocking of a highway (Right of Way) is a criminal offence under Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980. Offenders can face a fine and criminal record.

There is no reason to confine interference to physical interference. (To a Public Right of Way) An object can get in the way of the right of passage or other amenity rights because of its psychological impact.? Herrick v Kidner and Somerset County Council, 2014.

Section 130A-D of the Highways Act 1980(2)) empowers a member of the public to serve a notice on the highway authority to get an illegal obstruction removed from a highway.

There is an interesting battle looming at Dinas
http://www.cambrianmines.co.uk/NAL/Alternative_Route.html

I wonder who will come out on top?

Nearly always the highways agency. I wonder if the ramblers know this ROW has been illegally blocked

The Highway Authority (the council) will have to act when someone complains about a blocked public footpath (highway) and if the council don't act then they can complain to the ombudsman. The Ramblers Association might take it on but anybody can do what they do which is complain to the council.

If you are 100% certain it is a public footpath you have the right to force your way through and remove any obstacles as you go. But you have to be careful doing that. It might sound extreme but it is sometimes the best solution and if you are sure of your ground and do things correctly and reasonably you might (and should) find you have the support of the Highway Authority. You are allowed to do things like cut wire fences but it's complicated and covered by several bits of case law. In this case if the landowner was to put a locked gate in the way you would be within the law if you cut a lock off. It's all covered in the 'blue book' published by the Ramblers which is the guide used by Highway Authorites. It's entitled 'Rights of Way: a Guide to Law and Practice'.

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/rights-of-way-law-in-england-and-wales/the-blue-book.aspx

 

[darren]

A bridleway is not a highway, it is a byway.  Highways act does not apply.

Compliance is handled by council rights of way departments rather than highways department. Rights of way are normally poor relation with no money.

 

[darren]

https://www.facebook.com/IPROW-Institute-of-Public-Rights-of-Way-and-Access-Management-117616011655990/

 

[Simon Wilson]

A bridleway is not a highway, it is a byway.  Highways act does not apply.

Compliance is handled by council rights of way departments rather than highways department. Rights of way are normally poor relation with no money.

In law 'Highway Authority' is the term used for the relevant local government body. The word 'highway' is used for all rights of way of all types from a motorway through to a footpath and they are all covered by the Highways Act.

 

[royfellows]

A bridleway is not a highway, it is a byway.  Highways act does not apply.

Compliance is handled by council rights of way departments rather than highways department. Rights of way are normally poor relation with no money.

In law 'Highway Authority' is the term used for the relevant local government body. The word 'highway' is used for all rights of way of all types from a motorway through to a footpath and they are all covered by the Highways Act.

Absolutely correct. Only exceptions are motorways and trunk roads which in England are Highways England, a government company. Wales is different in that north and south are managed by different bodies, "North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agency" and in the south its "South Wales Highways Agent". Cant think why.

 

[Badlad]

Just read that the Scottish Act was based on the Scandinavian model of allemansrattan or 'every man's right'.  This suggests that Scandinavian countries have the best access rights in Europe.  Never been there long enough to see for myself.

I have spent a lot of time in N.Ireland though where access is terrible.  Just to find somewhere to walk the dog we usually have to drive to National Trust properties.  I expect the 'troubles' has been the major hurdle to progressing public access.

 

[Jenny P]

Having spent time in Norway and Sweden I can confirm that access is very easy there and you have a right to walk virtually anywhere other than in the private garden of a dwelling house.  In the north of both countries you can also camp practically anywhere, again except in someone's garden.

It may have something to do with the north of both countries being very sparsely populated so I would guess that land ownership is also very different from the UK.  Large chunks of the UK are owned by foreigners, mysterious offshore businesses, etc. - see earlier in this thread.  I'm not sure that this is so in the north of Norway, Sweden or even Finland because the Sami people have a right to roam all over the north of all three countries with their reindeer herds and can disregard frontiers completely.  In fact it's perfectly possible in the north to follow long distance routes which cross frontiers which exist on the map but aren't marked on the ground.

 

[mrodoc]

Just read that the Scottish Act was based on the Scandinavian model of allemansrattan or 'every man's right'.  This suggests that Scandinavian countries have the best access rights in Europe.  Never been there long enough to see for myself.

I have spent a lot of time in N.Ireland though where access is terrible.  Just to find somewhere to walk the dog we usually have to drive to National Trust properties.  I expect the 'troubles' has been the major hurdle to progressing public access.

Eire is no different. Although different rules apply depending who you are. We were in Connemara a while back and decided on a walk up a prominent hill when we were confronted by a large painted sign on a rock 'NO DOGS'. So we went to a local beach with our two Jack Russells. I was rather suprised and miffed to see, on a later TV programme, Monty Halls marching up the same hill with an unleashed black labrador. He is on Facebook but didn't respond to my polite query as to how he  overcame the ban.