Three Counties System

[langcliffe]

In the 70's I met several cavers who said their is not enough data to make the theory hold and even if were too hard to dig.

I'm sure that there were, but the received wisdom was that it was a well thought out thesis. The original idea was for a linked system between Yordas and Aygill Caverns - which has since proved to be a little pessimistic.

Harry Long expressed some reservations, but in 1971, three years after DB's original article Tony Waltham referred to it as being a "highly imaginative, and carefully debated description", and that "all the new evidence points to the validity of Brook's original ideas".

 

[Pitlamp]

George - best estimate for the separation betwen Large Pot (Red Herring Series) and the uttermost part (at present) of the Marble Steps Branch in Keld Head is 570 metres. The end of the latter is very shallow.

Graham - your question about who needs to go on expo is a very good one. There's plenty of absorbing caving challenges just 15 minutes from the front door; I've done a fair bit of caving overseas but, to be honest, I'd rather spend my time and energies actually caving rather than dealing with all the hassle and time waste associated with travel. This is something which often crops up in conversation. For years we've been supporting exploratory work abroad just because - well, because it happens to be abroad. The assumption that peoples' holiday caving deserves priority over high quality UK projects has always left me confused. British cavers have an excellent reputation for finding stuff in other countries but maybe we should try and shift the balance in favour of supporting UK exploration a bit more. The "Credit Crunch Expedition" to the Peak District is an excellent initiative, for example. I'd be delighted to see more of this kind of thing.

 

[Goydenman]

Graham - your question about who needs to go on expo is a very good one. There's plenty of absorbing caving challenges just 15 minutes from the front door; I've done a fair bit of caving overseas but, to be honest, I'd rather spend my time and energies actually caving rather than dealing with all the hassle and time waste associated with travel. This is something which often crops up in conversation. For years we've been supporting exploratory work abroad just because - well, because it happens to be abroad. The assumption that peoples' holiday caving deserves priority over high quality UK projects has always left me confused. British cavers have an excellent reputation for finding stuff in other countries but maybe we should try and shift the balance in favour of supporting UK exploration a bit more. The "Credit Crunch Expedition" to the Peak District is an excellent initiative, for example. I'd be delighted to see more of this kind of thing.

Can't agree more.

 

[barrabus]

.... I'd rather spend my time and energies actually caving rather than dealing with all the hassle and time waste associated with travel.

I agree, and my passport is 5 years out of date.

 

[gus horsley]

Can anyone remember what the (theoretical) link is between God's Bridge and Kingsdale?  It's in the back of my memory somewhere but I can't recall it.

 

[Badlad]

I think you'll find that most of the team involved with the Rift/Ireby dig, both past and present, also cave abroad.  Some regularly and some on those unworthy big foreign expeditions.  If you want to spend 25 years digging a doline in Mendip then that's just fine, it's what you want to do, but don't belittle others who want to broaden their horizons in Matienzo, Mexico, Megalaya or Mulu.

The 'Credit Crunch Expedition' is great for Derbyshire and I hope they make some real progress but is has been in the planning for well over a year, which is much longer than it takes to organise a big foreign trip these days.  After all, it is only a week or so's digging.  In the Dales this sort of organised digging goes on all the time.  The above breakthrough is testament to that, as is the recent Skylight dig in Ireby which attracted some 40 cavers for each of the 'Grand days out' and took very little time to plan and organise.

There is now only 50m of faulted choke between Notts 2 and Lost Johns.  This has been an active dig for many years.  In January there was a positive smoke test between the two which spurred on the work (in between expeditions of course).  Recent discoveries elsewhere in the system may also lead to a link.  Then if you're incredibly hard and can dive you'll be able to go from Bull Pot of the Witches all the way to Large Pot, or vica versa.  Looking forward to reading about that one!

 

[IanWalker]

A couple of links for those who are still interested in the original topic.

Red Rose news item:  http://rrcpc.org.uk/news/comments.php?id=261_0_1_0_C

Survey data:  http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wpblog/2010/06/ireby-fell-cavern-to-rift-pot/

 

[dunc]

Can anyone remember what the (theoretical) link is between God's Bridge and Kingsdale?  It's in the back of my memory somewhere but I can't recall it.

http://cucc.survex.com/archive/jnl/1971/3c.htm

 

[gus horsley]

Thanks for that Dunc

 

[Pitlamp]

I think that the info in that CUCC article (together with that in the relevant chapters in Limestones & Caves of NW England) is out of date or proven to be wrong (especially re dye testing). Best hope for a trans Scales Moor link might be old strike oriented phreatic stuff linking with down dip / up valley stuff on either side of Scales Moor. On the Chapel-le-Dale side this may well drain to God's Bridge but (to my knowledge) none has yet been proved.

Eyup Badlad - I hope you don't think I was belittling foreign caving endeavour. Nothing could be further from the truth.  All I'm saying is that it's no more important than exploration here and at least some cavers feel that the balance (regarding how funding is allocated for example) might be shifted at least a bit in favour of UK exploratory work . (I have done plenty of overseas caving myself - and have been supported by generous grants arranged by the GPF and others. I did also point out the good reputation of British cavers in the overseas arena.)

An example of the sort of UK project which I think might usefully have been supported (and yes - maybe even at the expense of foreign trips) is the Titan surface shaft dig. The main purpose of this was always exploratory but of course a vast number of sporting cavers have enjoyed the benefits of it since. This project was very expensive, was paid for out of the pockets of those involved - and arguably has been of far more value to a large number of UK cavers since completion. Yet all the expedition money went overseas during the period this project was being done.

One definition of "expedition" is "setting forth the execution of some object of consequence; progress". The assumption that this necessarily has to be overseas is flawed. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a more appropriate distribution of the funds available. I'm also going to apologise right NOW for inadvertently straying off topic here.

So- back on topic - well done to the team in question!

 

[Alex]

The one major difference with expeditions here and expeditions abroad is the sheer scale of things abroad. We cannot compare our caves with caves found we have in this country, it is at least for me a completly different experiance. Furthermore it feels like you are doing something epic when you travel to a remote country camp out in the mountians and then descend 100s of metres (or more then 1000 in some countries)

Of course exploring here has it merits, for example you do not have to fly 1000s of miles to enjoy what you have discovered and has a greater benifit on british caving community then discovering something abroad. You also get a bit of local fame.

Just the potential of large new discoveries here is far less ie our limestone does not go down that far.

As I think it was stated above I agree that energies should still be spent on both as I my self do, I only wish I could go abroad more (another advantage of local caving expeditions).

P.s. Well done on making the connection.

 

[graham]

I assume from that, Alex, that you wouldn't bother exploring in the Mammoth Cave in Kentucky 'cos it's not very deep.

It's quite long, though.

 

[Pitlamp]

The dimensions of a cave are only one aspect of many which contribute to the quality of the experience.

Distance from home is only one aspect of remoteness. I could show you fascinating and very unspoilt underground places here, where far fewer people have been than, say, Mulu. (Remember why "Moon Chamber" was so named?)

Alex - I think you articulated your opinion very well above; I know exactly what you mean. At the end of the day the enjoyment of a caving trip is only the opinion of the individuals involved. However, clearly not all British cavers are especially interested in the discovery of even very big caves overseas.  Therefore the balance of exploration funding (for overseas and UK exploratory work) isn't truly representative of UK cavers' interests generally.

My own view (and I accept this isn't shared by everyone) is that I'd far rather learn about developments in the Three Counties System than stuff abroad. When my copy of Descent arrives I find myself turning to the Northern and Peak District pages first. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that articles about China etc often go unread.

We have some massive and fascinating caving challenges here in the UK and these shouldn't be "belittled" either.

Speaking of foriegn caves, hasn't the Matienzo thing been a pretty amazing achievement by British cavers over the last half Century?!

 

[dunc]

[quote author=Pitlamp]My own view (and I accept this isn't shared by everyone) is that I'd far rather learn about developments in the Three Counties System than stuff abroad. When my copy of Descent arrives I find myself turning to the Northern and Peak District pages first. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that articles about China etc often go unread.[/quote]Must admit that is very similar to how things go with me too!
I generally quickly read/glance at the foreign bits but always spend plenty of time reading all the UK related articles, even the diving related stuff (even though I'm not and never likely to be one) as I find it all interesting and to be honest it helps you understand caves/systems better.

[quote author=Alex]Just the potential of large new discoveries here is far less ie our limestone does not go down that far.[/quote]Size isn't everything!! Even things like; Grassington Moor Caverns, how about reopening Lunehead (assuming it is still blocked), Silverband? - ok, nothing grand, but I'd visit them, whereas Dibdob Cave in Foreign-land  I'll never see, ever... Not that I'm saying foreign stuff isn't worthy, just I'd personally rather see some UK (re)discoveries.

 

[AndyF]

Yes I agree with the general thrust here.... I'd regard a find in the UK far more highly than any find abroad. I wouldn't decry the place for UK expeditions in any way, they are a fantastic personal achievement for those involved and have other cultural and mind-broadening aspects, but my memorable finds are allmost all in the UK..

There are massive caves still to be entered in the UK, there are half a dozen I can think of in the Peaks alone, but all would take long term focussed effort with no guarentee of sucess.

 

[stevejw]

Size isn't everything!! Even things like; Gr*ssington Moor Caverns, how about reopening Lunehead (assuming it is still blocked), Silverband? - ok, nothing grand, but I'd visit them, whereas Dibdob Cave in Foreign-land  I'll never see, ever... Not that I'm saying foreign stuff isn't worthy, just I'd personally rather see some UK (re)discoveries.

"To the speleologist the outstanding interest of the [Silverband] mine has been the extensive range of natural caverns in the Great Limestone first revealed by the London Lead Company over a century ago. Because detailed surveys of the caverns as such have never been made by the mining company concerned, the full extent of the system will probably never be known. The survey accompanying the present account records the plan of an area of the caverns which was still accessible during the period 1952-54. So far as is known the now disused mine workings are in increasingly dangerous condition, and recent reports (private communication) indicate that the caverns included on this survey are no longer accessible".

Here's to all those potential projects out there!! 

 

[Goydenman]

[quote author=Pitlamp]My own view (and I accept this isn't shared by everyone) is that I'd far rather learn about developments in the Three Counties System than stuff abroad. When my copy of Descent arrives I find myself turning to the Northern and Peak District pages first. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that articles about China etc often go unread.

Must admit that is very similar to how things go with me too!
I generally quickly read/glance at the foreign bits but always spend plenty of time reading all the UK related articles, even the diving related stuff (even though I'm not and never likely to be one) as I find it all interesting and to be honest it helps you understand caves/systems better.

[/quote]

Oh if others are 'coming out' I will - me too I read and even re-read the UK news particularly Northern, Peak District and Wales and often the overseas bit is left unread. Pitlamp's point about just some of the funding going to to UK projects as well as the overseas  projects is a good one. We thought that Titan project deserved support that we arranged a collection at the BCRA conference and also gave a few resources, mainly helicopter slings. I would have liked to have seen funding support for projects like this as well as projects such as finding the master cave beyond Mossdale/Black Keld, opening up Eldon Hole to King's discovered streamway, linking Aggy and Daren .... and to get back on subject bridging gaps in the Three Counties system.

 

[Alex]

Back on topic, I can confirm that larger cavers then me (I am quite small) cannot make it through the triangle sqeeze. Next time I am down there I am taking my hammer and chisel to get the rest of my party through. Had to come back out the way we came it was not pleasant as I was the only one to fit thtough .

For me personally I did not think much of it, it broadness of shoulders that will stop you.

 

[ianball11]

skinny  :ras:

 

[IanWalker]

Next time I am down there I am taking my hammer and chisel to get the rest of my party through. Had to come back out the way we came it was not pleasant as I was the only one to fit thtough

Maybe you could have done (or could do) the through trip on your own?  Otherwise they could visit the Ireby side from the Ireby entrance thus seeing the bits they missed before?  Also (don't have my copy with me) in Mike Cooper's Nor For the Faint Hearted is this squeeze: "Point Squeeze" which will represent the end point for some cavers?  It certainly is a point of interest and I'll be saddened if it goes.

I realise that a lot of excavation and widening has gone on to make the trip possible.

Just food for thought...