Three Counties System

[khakipuce]

Does it not also depend on what is beyond? If a tight entrance means that many cavers would not be able to access miles of passage then widening may be valid, but if I can get to either side but not make a through trip then it should probably not be widened

I think this is another difference between caving an climbing - often there are many routes of different grades up a crag so every one can get to the top, in caving this is not always the case.

 

[Roger W]

VERY tongue-in-cheek...

Would it be possible to enlarge the squeeze to allow the fattest caver to get through if necessary - also paramedics and rescuers with stretchers, etc., in emergencies - then fit a gate with a hole in it the size of the original opening...?


OK - soak me in petrol and apply a match   

 

[gus horsley]

I think this is another difference between caving an climbing - often there are many routes of different grades up a crag so every one can get to the top, in caving this is not always the case.

Aye, true, but it's all about what you experience on the way, and from that point of view caving and climbing aren't all that different.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Three Counties System - maybe some posts (including this) could be moved elsewhere.

 

[Alex]

The sqeeze in question is part of the connection point in the fabled 3 countys system, so it is very relivant.

 

[Badlad]

I guess most of those posting on here have no real intention of ever doing this trip.  To those that do you should heed the warnings of George and Neil above.  This is no easy connection.  Normally I have no real opinion on whether to enlarge a squeeze or not, but on this occasion I think it should be left well alone.  If you are too fat or inexperienced to get through the squeeze then you will struggle with the rest of the trip anyway and there are a lot better trips in the Dales for sure.  As has already been stated you do not want to be thrashing around in Pussy Cat or Coffin chokes and the Temple of Doom is prone to falling cobbles as well - especially after heavy rain.  The whole trip involves a lot of stenuous crawling.  The connection digs - there are several - are very muddy and that is in this period of drought.  There is every chance that when normal rainfall resumes they will return to wallows, ducks and maybe sumps.  Leave the squeeze alone, it's reputation will act as a good deterent to those who are not capable of the trip and maybe save the CRO a call out or two.  To those who are capable and know what they are in for - have a good one.

 

[dunc]

To those who are capable and know what they are in for - have a good one.

But to know if you're capable would mean trying, otherwise you'll never know for certain..? I intend trying when I get a chance (if I get chance and assuming this weather holds or it doesn't sump - no doubt time will tell), knowing a few people that have been through tells me I might be capable, although it sounds like it might be "a tad awkward". This is how this thread descended to where we are now, by someone knowing someone that had been through and thinking they were no bigger and as such capable but failed to get through..

I think this is another difference between caving an climbing - often there are many routes of different grades up a crag so every one can get to the top, in caving this is not always the case.

With this squeeze it is merely a connection between two caves.. Caves don't generally have many different routes to the bottom (not that "the bottom" or "the end" is always the destination..) There are many different grades of caves, certainly up north there is plenty of choice for all sizes and abilities, so there needs to be caves that are hard/challenging and not accessible to everyone just like there are climbs that some people will never gain the skill to overcome.

 

[Cave Mapper]

I went for recce from the Ireby side on Saturday. I got as far as the squeeze, but I didn't get through. I don't know whether this was because I'm too big, or because the horrors of South East Passage meant that I was ready to turn back anyway. You know how it is, if you are already feeling a bit out on a limb, then any obstacles become much harder.

South East passage is quite intimidating. The first section is a tight, flat out, 6m long, low airspace duck over cobbles. My ribcage was wedged between the roof and the cobbles, and it wasn't easy to find the tallest section of passage - the roof is flat, but the uneven floor is concealed by very muddy water. I did it face down, and got a mouthful of water and mud at one point. I've since heard that it is easier to do it on your back. Beyond the duck is a lengthy section of flat-out wriggling through a small and very muddy tube (the 'Border Control'?).

I would recommend anyone contemplating the through trip to check out the Ireby side first, especially if there is any uncertainty about the water level in this duck. You really wouldn't want to get all the way through from Rift, past a one-way squeeze, to be faced with a serious and unfamilar duck that may or may not be passable.

At present, I don't think anyone knows whether the duck is simply going to fill up as soon as the current dry spell finishes. Or whether it will get blocked by stones after the first flood.

Much respect to the diggers for forging this link. Lets hope that it is not too transient.

 

[Subterranean]

I did this through trip with 3 others as the first 'tourist' group through, the day after the connection was made. Firstly, a massive congratulations to the diggers for their long, selfless work. This was one of my favourite trips in quite a while and many thanks to Neil and everyone else at the farm for encouraging us to do it.

My personal opinion on the tight section is that it should remain as it is. I'm a 6 foot caver, probably medium build and didn't actually realise I had passed the squeeze until I was on the other side looking back at it, realising it looked like how Neil had described it to me. It will definitely stop larger cavers, but I have been through much worse.

The connection passage is quite committing and it would be 'sporting' if it fills up with wetter weather. The passage is slightly worrying during the lower sections of mud crawls and ducks. Thankfully its pretty much impossible to go the wrong way in this section so you can be sure you're on the right track.

 

[Cave Mapper]

I completed the through trip this afternoon. It is a superb journey, one of the best in Yorkshire (or should that be Yorkshire/Lancashire).

I was very glad that I had checked out the Ireby end first, it made it much easier to commit to the final squeeze, knowing that if I could get through, I wouldn't need to go back. It also made the final low-airspace, wet section less intimidating.

The Triangle Squeeze was a bit of a squeeze, but not too scary because the tightest bit is very short and once you've worked out the correct angle there are some good footholds to push off from - that might be why it's harder to go the other way. I put my spare lamp through first so that I could see where I was heading, then I pulled my helmet and SRT bag through on a rope afterwards. I didn't want to get through the squeeze and be unable get my gear, so I was very careful to arrange things to avoid any chance of snagging.

I also found the Calcite Squeeze, which is just before the Triangle, a bit of a struggle - my ribcage is relatively deep.

The Pussy Cat Choke and the Coffin Shop are a bit dodgy, but from the Rift side you can see exactly what's what, so with care they are reasonably safe, so long as you are not too big. But it would be a lot better if they could be sorted out properly and made safe - it doesn't look like an impossible job.