Three Counties System

[Loki]

Back on topic, I can confirm that larger cavers then me (I am quite small) cannot make it through the triangle sqeeze. Next time I am down there I am taking my hammer and chisel to get the rest of my party through. Had to come back out the way we came it was not pleasant as I was the only one to fit thtough .

As part of the digging team I can assure you that 'average' sized cavers will fit through this squeeze with no need for further modifications.  You only have to look at the team members (some of them well known faces in Ingleton) all of whom have been through in both directions.  It is a technical squeeze involving a certain maneuver and facing a particular way but I am not about to give anything away, that would be spoiling the fun.
All the digging was done with no rock modification, just mud removal and hard work. 
Any modification is NOT NECESSARY particularly when consideration is given to Georges earlier comments on the other objective dangers that are present - i hope i don't need to say more.

 

[Alex]

It was partly due to those chokes (the other objective dangers) why I did not fancy a return journey and wished to widen it. He spent a good hour trying to get through in various ways and simply he would not fit. Is it not unfair to discriminate like this? You may as well hang a sign up saying no fatties or big boned! I thought widening it would do everyone a favor? 

I actually thought that because some cannot fit at all it was in the pipeline to widen it as stated it blocks many cavers.  An inch could be removed making it a challange but not impossible (as it is now) for larger cavers, it would not make any difference to us smaller cavers as it was piss easy for me at least anyway, (I even managed it backwards while retreiving an helmet, though I admit that did hurt!).

Loki has since corrected me that it seems that it will be left as is, so I guess I wont be widening it then on a return trip.

Maybe I should just cave with thinner boned people then?

 

[ianball11]

alex, please dont go around widening tight bits.

 

[Daz_of_caving]

alex, please dont go around widening tight bits.

Why don't you just go caving and stop moaning?

 

[graham]

The answer to this conundrum is to ensure that every single digging and exploration team has a fat bloke on it. That way, no-one coming along later will have cause for concern.

 

[ianball11]

alex, please dont go around widening tight bits.

Why don't you just go caving and stop moaning?

do I know you?

 

[dunc]

Indeed, if there were more 'larger' diggers then no doubt the passages would be widened enough for them to fit through...

Personally I can't see the point in widening everything, it removes the challenge and I don't consider myself skinny, just average so no doubt when I get round to having a dabble at this connection squeeze I'll probably spend time working out the best line of attack and then either succeed or fail. I'm sure there's other stuff out there that I might not get through too, annoying perhaps but I just move on elsewhere.

Is it not unfair to discriminate like this? You may as well hang a sign up saying no fatties or big boned!

The problem is of course, once you start widening stuff where would you draw the line? How big would you make a squeeze, what size caver do you want to allow through (20stone and built like a brick s-house)?? Until everyone can get through it will always be discriminatory.

Could something vaguely similiar not be said of climbing (I'm no climber so excuse my lack of knowledge on grades), if say I only did easier grades but one day decided to do a hard grade but couldn't get up, could I wack a pile of pegs/steps into the rock just to assist me on the tricky stuff?? Surely having a climb that's too difficult  would discriminate against poorer climbers??

 

[Stu]

Indeed, if there were more 'larger' diggers then no doubt the passages would be widened enough for them to fit through...

The problem is of course, once you start widening stuff where would you draw the line? How big would you make a squeeze, what size caver do you want to allow through (20stone and built like a brick s-house)?? Until everyone can get through it will always be discriminatory.

Could something vaguely similiar not be said of climbing (I'm no climber so excuse my lack of knowledge on grades), if say I only did easier grades but one day decided to do a hard grade but couldn't get up, could I wack a pile of pegs/steps into the rock just to assist me on the tricky stuff?? Surely having a climb that's too difficult  would discriminate against poorer climbers??

It's an interesting paradigm; especially where cave passages have been enlarged in the first instance. Should any blockage (bar boulders or mud) ever be enlarged? In climbing the dictat would be to leave it for someone better; or in this case thinner (although there have been some cases of climbs being "shaped" i.e. chipped).

 

[gus horsley]

I think this debate has gone on elsewhere.  I've always been a big (ie larger than average) caver who has been defeated by a few, but not many, squeezes, but I would never advocate enlarging them just so I could get my bulk through.  I'm also a climber and I've seen a bit of (recent) chipping on a few routes - to me it destroys any sense of achievement apart from lowering the grade. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

<deep philosophy> Do you adapt yourself to fit the world, or adapt the world to suit yourself?</>

 

[stevejw]

Perhaps in addition to widening passages to 'accomodate' we should also ensure running water is suitably heated, scented and restricted to a moderate tickle (or is that trickle).  :blink:

 

[Stu]

but I would never advocate enlarging them just so I could get my bulk through.

But would you if you were the lead digger with the potential for a breakthrough? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

but I would never advocate enlarging them just so I could get my bulk through.

But would you if you were the lead digger with the potential for a breakthrough? 

Mr Skinny JRat chemically widened virtually every Mendip dig he worked on. Maybe someone should add up all the weights of explosive recorded in his log books. It was probably enough to demolish half of Wells. We all benefit today from the results of his successful digs.

 

[gus horsley]

but I would never advocate enlarging them just so I could get my bulk through.

But would you if you were the lead digger with the potential for a breakthrough? 

Ah well, here we're getting into something slightly different.  I have had my fair share of digs and (small) discoveries and, yes, I've dug something out just big enough for me to get through.  However, the argument was whether something which had already been discovered should be modified in order to make access easier, in which case I'd say no, unless there was a risk of danger such as collapse, etc.  I'll mention the case of Valley Entrance, which had three easy but fun ducks when I first did it and at some point someone decided to modify them to allow easier access.  A shame really and completely unneccessary IMHO.

 

[Goydenman]

Interesting discussion one for which we all know no ideal answer. Ralf and I are a digging team at present and dig it wide enough to get him through first then I have widened it further to get me through, I am average size he is a skinny runt (hope you are online Ralf!). So my judgement is weighed by two factors in tension 1. I don't mind if others widen things further to get themselves through with 2. I hate to see all the key challenges in caves (know some places this has happened) removed. I don't want to discriminate with others of different sizes being able to enjoy the trips but also I want to conserve challenging sections of cave so they remain a challenge.

 

[stevejw]

Second that!

 

[Alex]

Ahh Dunc though climbing thing is different entirely as your climbing is a skill and therefor can be improved. But larger people where the mass is not fat cannot shrink any more so no matter what they do they cannot do anything about it, short of lopping limbs off.

As for preserving challanges, 90% of these caves where there is a difficulty it would be hard to do anything about it, so the challange will always remain in many caves, in the one in question an hour with a chisel is all that would be required.

I always want to challange my self all the time. If its skill that is required then it should not be modified, however if it prevents some regardless of skill then maybe it should?

Meditate on this.

 

[dunc]

Hmmm, I see your point, skill can sometimes be improved but not always. Not everyone can improve themselves to such high standards, everyone has a limit (like they do in caving)

Anyway, the squeeze in question can, apparently, be done by average sized cavers, there's a certain way of doing it to get through, unless you're a skinny runt like your good self, in which case you probably floated through without touching the sides    so there's an element of skill rather than it being too tight.
From what I've heard about it, it reminds me of an obscure passage in Lancaster Hole that required a certain position to be able to progress forwards, all good fun  :

 

[Mudminer02]

Just want to point out the squeeze into the NCC extensions of Rift Pot, beyond the Temple of Doom were pushed at least 12 years ago by NCC/RRCPC members. When we first went in to have a look I didn't know if I would fit, on all subsequent trips at least two or three members have really struggled, especially after coming out muddy from the end. We have never considered enlarging this squeeze, we totally respect the original team who pushed this, we accepted this as a constraint to our trips, I know average or larger sized cavers will fit, the squeeze has a knack, I would be extremely disappointed if anyone took a hammer to this one, and I'm sure it would have the original pusher Pete ?, turning in h?s tackle bag, to quote a phrase...

Please consider the work of others before you before you decide to enlarge a squeeze.


Neil Pacey

 

[Pitlamp]

Alex has an extremely good point where he contrasts caving (size) against climbing (skill/fitness).

There really is no easy answer to this one. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a culture where peer opinion is sought before going ahead with any proposed enlargement of a restriction. There are always pros and cons and every situation is different. Ask as many experienced cavers as possible and see what the concensus is. Like several other caving colleagues who posted above I dislike the idea of caves being made easy for convenience but there may be cases where, on balance, it could be justified. But there really is no easy answer sometimes.