To bolt or not to bolt?

[NigR]

By whose definition is "safe"?

In the context mentioned, mine. I am not advocating 'handfuls' of bolts on trade routes (I don't do tourist trips) but if I reached a point in any cave where I felt a bolt was justified to aid exploration (in any shape or form) I would have no hesitation in placing one. As I have already said, "whatever it takes".

Now, it may be true that whatever the impression given NigR has only ever placed bolts in "non-contentious" places...

Sorry, but I don't need someone else to make falsely assumed qualifications on my behalf. Just to make things perfectly clear (although I thought I already had) I have always placed bolts wherever and whenever I have wanted, both in Britain and in France, and will continue to do so. If other people want to make a contentious issue of it that is up to them.

 

[graham]

I don't do tourist trips

Statements like that always remind me of a mate of mine who many years ago on one of our foreign trips was heard to say: "I didn't come here to enjoy myself, I came to go caving".

We've been taking the piss out of him over that ever since.

 

[Cave_Troll]

"I have always placed bolts wherever and whenever I have wanted, both in Britain and in France, and will continue to do so."

I've got to say this does sound very arrogant.
I have visions of you bolting up pitches because you can't be bothered to crawl along, pop into the streamway, go up a pitch , do some more crawling do down a short pitch, all to get to the top of the pitch that you started at.
but of course this is in known cave, so you'd not want to visit it as a tourist.
If you never do "tourist caving" i assume that you live in Matienzo or somewhere remote and once its been surveyed you never go back.

 

[NigR]

Note to Graham:
I enjoy exploratory caving, that is why I do it. I do not enjoy tourist caving, that is one of the reasons why I do not do it. I'm not knocking anyone who enjoys going on tourist trips (have done plenty myself in the past), just saying that it is not for me these days. Different folk prefer different things.

Note to Cave_Troll:
Despite the impression you may have gained, I do not particularly enjoy bolting - I just do it as a means to an end. As for living somewhere remote, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you - I live in South Wales (about 5 minutes from the end of the M4).

 

[Chris J]

Hang on - surely they were having this debate 20 years ago (which is why the eco anchor scheme started)?

Bolt rash in popular caves is not a new problem and P anchors are a good solution.

The problem is with the lag between the bolts being on their way out and someone getting on with the P bolting. Is it right to do your own bolting in between?

Well i'd say that depends on your reason. For example it is a bit of a waste to re-bolt a tourist cave which you just happen to be visiting, have no reason to return to don't have a project at the bottom etc..

In other words - in this country (or any with a developed sports caving fraternity) you should have a good reason if putting your own - non 'long lasting' bolts in.

Precisely what a 'good reason' is, is up for debate!

 

[cap n chris]

I'd like to have a quick "Time Out" on this, mostly for the benefit of newbies.

The OP was "To bolt or not to bolt"? in an off-route imaginary, non-tourist, cave. Various contributors have responded "Yes" and this thread has begun to drift into a generic bolt/not bolt debate rather than the original specific question.

Generally, unilaterally placing bolts in caves isn't something people ought to do.

However, bolting is a valid exploration technique but it is not something which people should routinely engage in while negotiating known routes in UK caves (and elsewhere).

Please can we keep this distinction plain and unconfusing? - it would be sad if people reading this thread came away with the impression that "proper cavers place bolts wherever they wish if it makes their trip safe(r)" and that such activities ought to be emulated.

I think it is intuitively clear that it is unreasonable for RCCs to be routinely involved in minor digger's/explorer's bolting debates/projects.

 

[NigR]

In other words - in this country (or any with a developed sports caving fraternity) you should have a good reason if putting your own - non 'long lasting' bolts in.

Precisely what a 'good reason' is, is up for debate!

The only reason I would ever put bolts in would be to aid exploration.

...it would be sad if people reading this thread came away with the impression that "proper cavers place bolts wherever they wish if it makes their trip safe(r)" and that such activities ought to be emulated.

I entirely agree - see my answer to the point above.

I think it is intuitively clear that it is unreasonable for RCCs to be routinely involved in minor digger's/explorer's bolting debates/projects.

I most certainly agree, although this seems to conflict with the impression given by some of the earlier posts.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for Mr Mayhew to put his credentials on the line.

 

[NigR]

So, still no response from Mr Mayhew - what a surprise!

Having just re-read the earlier posts in this thread, I would also take issue with the following statement:

Expansion bolts are shit. Do not use them.

Again, I would like to politely ask the person who has made this comment to enlighten me as to his credentials. No, I don't mean what books has he read or what has he heard from someone in the pub - I mean what practical experience does he have which entitles him to impart this advice to other people? I am genuinely interested because my own experience suggests otherwise. Despite having placed literally hundreds of 8mm expansion bolts, sometimes (purely from necessity) in extremely dubious rock, I have yet to have one fail on me. Yes, in the long term there are better solutions available for permanent belays on popular routes but if this is what he means he should say so. I am still using bolts on a regular basis which were first placed more than ten years with no problems whatsoever. So long as the initial placement is correctly undertaken I see no reason why anyone should refrain from the continued use of such bolts and feel that it is wrong to try to put people off doing so.

 

[cap n chris]

Expansion bolts are shit because they corrode without any external evidence whereby they can be checked for such corrosion; also, by design, they place pressure on the rock and this is also unverifiable visually.

BTW, I didn't realise that people were required to post their credentials in internet forums in order to post an opinion. Perhaps you'd like to list your credentials* for us NigR?

The expansion bolts being shit sentence was posted earlier on in this thread when it started to look as though "innocent bystanders" (i.e. newbies) might have had their views on the placing of bolts swayed unthinkingly.

Sure, expansion bolts have their uses - but not as part of the main routes within popular systems.

* A semi-benign Troll, perchance?

 

[whitelackington]

I think the new bolts in OFD are 12mm Petzl expansion bolts

They are stainless steel by the look of them

 

[cap n chris]

If they're stainless steel they'll no doubt be fine: I'd be interested to know what the testing procedure is for expansion bolts.

 

[NigR]

BTW, I didn't realise that people were required to post their credentials in internet forums in order to post an opinion.

You were not posting an opinion, you were telling other people what to do, i.e. "Do not use them". I am merely asking what practical experience you have in the use of expansion bolts which you feel entitles you to do this. The fact that you have completely evaded my question suggests that the answer is (as I suspected) none. If this is the case, then I feel that you should refrain from attempting to influence other people (be they newbies or experienced cavers) on the basis of secondhand evidence. Just so there can be no possible misunderstanding over this, I will therefore ask again: how many bolts have you personally inserted and used? (By 'used', I mean actually placed your weight on them in a caving situation).

 

[graham]

I have also placed (and assisted in placing) expansion bolts. The only bolts of that type worth using are stainless steel ones placed in drilled (not self-drilled) holes. I doubt that there is formal testing procedure for this type of bolt in caves as there are so few of them relatively speaking. I do not doubt, however, that there are cavers out there who are quite capable of devising a suitable procedure should one ever be required.

I have seen quite a few ordinary mild steel bolts corroded beyond use, including those placed on pitches that are most certainly not on "trade routes".

 

[cap n chris]

I will therefore ask again: how many bolts have you personally inserted and used? (By 'used', I mean actually placed your weight on them in a caving situation).

Fewer than you. I have been "officially" trained to do so, however.

Telling people not to place bolts in a cave falls within the remit of C&A, and is unrelated to whether or not they are technically fit for purpose.

 

[NigR]

Fewer than you.

Again, an evasive answer.

I have been "officially" trained to do so, however.

Oh jolly good, that's alright then. I just hope whoever "officially" trained you had some practical experience themselves.

 

[cap n chris]

Probably not.

So, you are a troll, then?

 

[Hatstand]

Firstly, can I congratulate all concerned on a most entertaining thread  

Its very interesting reading the caving "establishment" approach about bolt placement, which I must say I can understand the need for, but in comparison with the mine exploration approach which seems to mirror NigR's approach more. But then I suppose there are fewer mine "trade routes"*

*croesor rhosydd excepted!  :

 

[menacer]

Probably not.

So, you are a troll, then?

Oh dear me...
......from google

In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.

I dont think either of you are trolls......just differences in opinions....which i thought is what sharing info on forums was all about ????

 

[graham]

Firstly, can I congratulate all concerned on a most entertaining thread  

Its very interesting reading the caving "establishment" approach about bolt placement, which I must say I can understand the need for, but in comparison with the mine exploration approach which seems to mirror NigR's approach more. But then I suppose there are fewer mine "trade routes"*

*croesor rhosydd excepted!  :

Don't you mining types install three fat blokes at the head of every pitch?

 

[Hatstand]

Don't you mining types install three fat blokes at the head of every pitch?

erm, no idea what you're talking aboot sorry!!!  :doubt: