To bolt or not to bolt?

[paul]

Yes, the DCA scheme is v.good and a credit to those who do the legwork..   

It's not the legwork that's a pain, it's the paperwork...

But it isn't MY job - so that's OK!

 

[cap n chris]

Expansion bolts are shit. Do not use them.

Any non-stainless steel bolt is shit. Do not use them either.

Generally, do not place bolts without first checking with your RCC (unless you are in your own dig).

Anyone contributing to this thread should not advocate/suggest/condone/support the placing of any bolt in any cave. This thread began as an imaginary scenario. If you want to rewrite UK conservation policy PLEASE do so through established channels.

 

[darkplaces]

I think this topic is raising the issue.

Does the RCC control cavers or provide a service for cavers?
Is this peer pressure or can cavers be punished for placing bolts without referring to an RCC?

don't worry I am not going to go off on one of my freedom rantings. I think cutting to the chase, reading between the lines, cutting to the quip, cutting though the crap. That is the question that's is really being asked or maybe inferred or maybe the question is a hidden poll.

 

[dunc]

Does the RCC control cavers or provide a service for cavers?

There may perhaps be the odd person within RCCs that think they should have control over everyone but at the end of the day RCCs are run by cavers for cavers, so they provide a service.

Is this peer pressure or can cavers be punished for placing bolts without referring to an RCC?

Depends on the location, I know of a few places where bolts have been placed without the RCC being involved, they weren't punished for doing it - using sensible judgement in whether to place bolts or not and of what type is a good starting point.

 

[Stu]

Really interesting reading the threads. They pretty much mirror the opinions put forward when a few of us had this debate over a pint. There was no strong conclusion other than people probably wouldn't bolt for fear of doing it wrong. Which is strange as it's definitely a dying "art". Whether it's one that should be resurrected, with all the associated problems that would/could come with it, is difficult to answer. We thought that if people really wanted to practice for the one in a million chance occasion they would need to (caving abroad say), then practice on a large lump of limestone that may have made it's way into your backyard spank!

The debate about RCC's and carts before the horse went on for a while too!

 

[dunc]

There was no strong conclusion other than people probably wouldn't bolt for fear of doing it wrong. Which is strange as it's definitely a dying "art".

I've never tried bolting, seen it done once or twice and could probably make an attempt that would work (although probably not to some peoples liking!) - its not something you need to know about unless you're visiting obscure places or endulging in exploration.. Most places (including the lesser visited caves/pots) have bolts of one form or another in place these days and unless these become knackered there is generally no need to put more in unless you are adding an extra route on a popular pitch perhaps or some other reason I can't think of right now.

 

[graham]

I think this topic is raising the issue.

Does the RCC control cavers or provide a service for cavers?
Is this peer pressure or can cavers be punished for placing bolts without referring to an RCC?

don't worry I am not going to go off on one of my freedom rantings. I think cutting to the chase, reading between the lines, cutting to the quip, cutting though the crap. That is the question that's is really being asked or maybe inferred or maybe the question is a hidden poll.

It's never as simple as Mr DP would like to make out. RCCs consist of cavers and at open meetings the cry is always for them to be better attended not to keep people out. In practice therefore, they offer the best service that can be devised by those who have the commitment to attend.

There may be circumstances where bolting may deemed to be unlawful, if things are being done in SSSIs that are on the list of PDOs for example. It is perfectly possible for a landowner to complain about wilful damage as well.

It does seem to be the consensus that on this overcrowded little island of ours some agreed codes of practice are needed to ensure that our pitch heads do not become unusable through a proliferation of badly placed and/or worn out bolts. It was these concerns that lead to some of those cavers mentioned in my first paragraph to devise the P bolting scheme and to get it up and running properly for the benefit of both caves and cavers.

I have placed bolts in various places over the years using various techniques and materials. These days I leave that to the guys trained to install P bolts properly. I will help carry their kit in and out, though, if I can.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Let's go back to basics about bolting.  First when you drill a hole and put a bolt in, you are using up an area of the pitch head where no subsequent bolt can be placed.  (Whilst one might be able to reuse the hole in some circumstances, the first challenge is getting the old anchor out without affecting the rock - I won't go on to talk about the other challenges.)  Crudely speaking this area is about four times the depth of the bolt.  That figure is derived from the potential cone of material which might be pulled out if the rock / bolt failed being roughly twice the depth of the bolt.  So when you put a second bolt in you have to separate the new hole by 4 times the depth from the old bolt, assuming both bolts go in the same depth.  Eco anchors use a hole 100 mm deep, so that means 400 mm between anchors. 

Secondly, one hopes when you put a bolt in you do so in the best location for rigging the pitch.  No doubt we can argue for ever and another day about how many "best" locations are available at pitch heads.  But I hope most will agree that it is not a large number.  When you recall that best practice also requires a second bolt to back up the first, you can start to see that the area at a pitch head (or part way down the pitch) is starting to get rather small.

So fundamentally it is a matter of conservation of the cave. 

I would suggest that if you are thinking of replacing an existing bolt, then get it done with a BCA approved one.  Yes I know their are complications with getting hold of BCA Eco anchors, so can your replacement job wait for a some months whilst BCA sort a new anchor out?  And I know some will claim there are supposed complications about finding approved Eco Anchor installers, but they are out their in each region, so contact the RCC to find out who it is. 

By the way, bolting is not hard now there are powered drills (though you do need to know what you are doing), the really hard bit is choosing the location to place it!

 

[dunc]

I would suggest that if you are thinking of replacing an existing bolt, then get it done with a BCA approved one.  Yes I know their are complications with getting hold of BCA Eco anchors, so can your replacement job wait for a some months whilst BCA sort a new anchor out?

How many months are we talking or are we really talking years?
If it is best replaced with an approved anchor then it needs an approved installer (anyone can get hold of the anchor and shove it in any old way), then of course the installer needs to be able to get to the pitch in question and place the bolt - not everyone is willing to visit awkward pitches dragging drills and other stuff and of course there is the priority system; or lets do the easy popular pots first then in years to come someone else might do the crap lesser visited stuff -why do I say that? because I can't ever recall seeing a p-bolt installed (by an approved installer) somewhere obscure despite some of these places needing decent anchors....

And before the do-gooders come out saying I should get off my lazy arse and offer to assist the RCCs, been there tried that, asked asked and asked again (along with three others at a similar time) and we all got ignored depsite the fact that myself and the other three were willing and able to undertake bolting trips to some of the more awkward pots out there.. Unfortunately its unlikely I'll be in a position to offer again as I've aged 5 years, lost hair although thats been replaced with weight, have a job that has got more physically demanding and now have more commitments than I used to when I was young free and single!  

 

[AndyF]

Let's go back to basics about bolting.  First when you drill a hole and put a bolt in, you are using up an area of the pitch head where no subsequent bolt can be placed.  (Whilst one might be able to reuse the hole in some circumstances, the first challenge is getting the old anchor out without affecting the rock - I won't go on to talk about the other challenges.)  Crudely speaking this area is about four times the depth of the bolt.  That figure is derived from the potential cone of material which might be pulled out if the rock / bolt failed being roughly twice the depth of the bolt.  So when you put a second bolt in you have to separate the new hole by 4 times the depth from the old bolt, assuming both bolts go in the same depth.  Eco anchors use a hole 100 mm deep, so that means 400 mm between anchors.   

This does not apply to bolt replacement, only to where you are using adjacent bolts/hangers for a hang.

If the old bolt is falling into disuse (due to being worn out for example) ,then you may place the new one closer if you inspect the rock properly. You will not be in the situation of the second one failing because the first one pulls out since, by definition, you are no longer using the first one. QED

 

[Stu]

And before the do-gooders come out saying I should get off my lazy arse and offer to assist the RCCs, been there tried that, asked asked and asked again (along with three others at a similar time) and we all got ignored depsite the fact that myself and the other three were willing and able to undertake bolting trips to some of the more awkward pots out there.. 

Interesting. I too was knocked back, for want of a better phrase. The reply to my enquiry to help/get involved was why? I thought my hand would have been snapped off!

 

[Les W]

why do I say that? because I can't ever recall seeing a p-bolt installed (by an approved installer) somewhere obscure despite some of these places needing decent anchors...

Priddy Green Sink is bolted with approved resin anchors.
I can't think of a more obscure difficult area of Mendip that needs bolting. 

 

[cap n chris]

Swine Puke pull through?

Slither Pot?

Pretty "obscure"?

 

[Bob Mehew]

This does not apply to bolt replacement, only to where you are using adjacent bolts/hangers for a hang.

If the old bolt is falling into disuse (due to being worn out for example) ,then you may place the new one closer if you inspect the rock properly. You will not be in the situation of the second one failing because the first one pulls out since, by definition, you are no longer using the first one. QED

Hi Andy.  I assume you are proposing the rock has not been affected by the old bolt type (c.f. expansion bolts) or by usage (c.f. large shock loading from a fall or other means).  I accept if you have confidence in the rock, then you could reduce the distance to roughly 200 mm but getting the confidence is the key.  I would be interested in your ideas about "proper" inspection.

By the way, before any one comments, current guidance which states 200 mm separation needs reviewing.

In answer to Dunc's question about time scale, my estimate is late summer.  I think we are nearly to the point of starting testing (but there are a few points to be confirmed so as to ensure we don't waste effort).  We do have one potential anchor lined up to replace DMM's Eco anchor which is no longer available.  If Dunc does have a small project which requires urgent attention, then send me a private message with details. 

 

[AndyF]

This does not apply to bolt replacement, only to where you are using adjacent bolts/hangers for a hang.

If the old bolt is falling into disuse (due to being worn out for example) ,then you may place the new one closer if you inspect the rock properly. You will not be in the situation of the second one failing because the first one pulls out since, by definition, you are no longer using the first one. QED

Hi Andy.  I assume you are proposing the rock has not been affected by the old bolt type (c.f. expansion bolts) or by usage (c.f. large shock loading from a fall or other means).  I accept if you have confidence in the rock, then you could reduce the distance to roughly 200 mm but getting the confidence is the key.  I would be interested in your ideas about "proper" inspection.

I don't think that "proper" inspection is really practical. All one can reasonably do is wipe the mud of, spray a bit of water on and look very hard for fractures..... This is the reality of what people do. There is no real way of knowing what is going on 100/200/400mm into the rock, one can only see the surface.

I guess that the point is that 100% inspection is not required, because everyone rigs properly (!! ) in a way that a failure is not a disaster. This is partly the reason that I don't like single bolt rebelays..

 

[Bob Mehew]

I accept that a visual inspection of the clean surface local to the old anchor is important.  I agree it is at the verges of practicability for us to think about techniques like ultra sound (but I wonder if CREG might be able to do something - thanks for pushing me this way).  One other suggestion I heard of, was to tap the rock to hear how it "rang".  Crude but instinct says potentially effective; after all the railway wheel tappers did not do it for fun.  I fully agree about not relying on just one anchor.  But I am reminded of one failure where a very large block in which the anchor was placed came off; which means that one should be looking at a fairly large surrounding area which I think translates into meters distance in some cases. 

But to come back to the original question for this thread, I still reckon conservation should be controlling what one does.

 

[francis]

I ALWAYS tap the rock with a hammer when placing a bolt!

Francis

 

[NigR]

One other suggestion I heard of, was to tap the rock to hear how it "rang".  Crude but instinct says potentially effective...

No disrespect intended but I would be extremely interested to know how much bolting the person who said this has done. He is trying to tell other people how to go about it but I gain the distinct impression he does not possess the necessary practical experience which would (possibly) entitle him to do so. As Francis says, tapping the rock with your bolting hammer (fast, light taps over a wide area) is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL before placing a bolt ANYWHERE! So come on Mr Mehew, how much proper (exploratory) caving have you done and how many bolts have you actually inserted?

Getting back to the original question posed by this thread, i.e. would you bolt or not?, my answer would be yes, of course, go ahead and do it but make a good job of it. It does take a while to perfect the technique so find a disused limestone quarry on the surface (preferably one not frequented by climbers) and practice there first rather than  make a mess of things underground.

Having placed many hundreds of bolts (both for rigging pitches and aid-climbing) over the last 26 years I feel fairly well-qualified to speak on this. My policy has always been (and will continue to be) as follows;

If I go down a cave (no matter where it is) and I reach a point where I can progress no further in safety, I will do whatever it takes to get where I want to go. In practical terms, this may mean reaching a pitch where I consider the belays (natural or man-made) to be unsafe or inadequate. If I've got the drill and the gear with me, I'll rig it and go down. Otherwise, I'll turn around and go out with a view to coming back another time with the necessary equipment. Conversely, if I reach a point where there is an upwards climb (possibly an aven) that I cannot do without aid I will have no hesitation in bolting up it if need be. The one thing I won't do, in either case, is contact a Regional Caving Council for permission.

Note to Dunc and Stu:
Feel free to contact me (either by pm or this board) if you want any advice about any aspect of placing bolts or information regarding the best equipment (you really do need to get a drill). Being able to place bolts is a useful skill, particularly for that one time when your dig does go and you are faced with a brand new pitch! Don't rely on other folk to do it for you!

 

[cap n chris]

If I go down a cave (no matter where it is) and I reach a point where I can progress no further in safety, I will do whatever it takes to get where I want to go.

Can of worms. People reading your response are likely to be left with the impression that it's OK to place bolts wherever they like provided it enables them to get somewhere safely. By whose definition is "safe"? i.e. are timid wannabe bolters going to think it's ok to place bolts at a 2 metre drop which they find scary? I can think of MASSES of examples of places where, for whatever reason, there aren't bolts but which would be highly welcome as they would reduce the risks which cavers are otherwise forced to take (for example, OFD has plenty of hazardous areas where bolts would be reasonably expected and yet there are none to be found. Ignoring the RCC and placing handfuls of bolts in there would go down well, don't you reckon?).

 

[graham]

I agree with Chris, definitely a can of worms. Now, it may be true that whatever the impression given NigR has only ever placed bolts in "non-contentious" places, but in this day and age I do not think that a responsible caver should give the impression that he can do what he likes on what is, after all, somebody else's property without a by-your-leave either to the landowner or to his peers in the caving community.