The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Wowser what a browser. 30 pages. Three abroad. Too many dig sites written up for me to count on both hands. Yes it can be done but obviously not every time. Credit to all concerned.
Too Much " Foreign Stuff " In Caving Mags. and Journals ?
- Thread starter The Old Ruminator
- Start date
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
Out of my core friendship group of cavers (consisting of 30 + people) almost all of us have caved abroad in the last year, and I'd guess at least 50% have caved abroad in at least 3 different countries, if not more, in the last year. So based on that (admittedly, extremely small) sample I'd suggest a lot of people regularly cave abroad. We're also interested in further ideas of where to go on caving holidays and future caving expeditions.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
Another issue with UK articles, is that it's hard to write anything 'new' on sporting trips in the UK that most UK cavers don't already know about. And not everyone is interested in digging. So articles about caving abroad are a way of covering sporting trips too (like the coventosa one, for example)
Oceanrower
Active member
I sometimes think I’m the only one who just goes caving with a couple of mates and goes to the pub afterwards.
Context, caves in Derbyshire are as foreign as caves in Spain in that I’m just as unlikely to visit them. If Tim puts up something about Portland, I’ll read it. Similarly Mendips, South Wales and Devon.
But where I live there’s no chance of me going digging every week. I’m a crap photographer and absolutely nobody wants to read yet another trip report about the Short Round or similar.
I’m not sure what point I’m trying to make (or even if there is one!), but I’ve been involved in many activities over the years; diving, rowing, caving, powerboat racing, climbing, etc., some of them professionally, and I can’t think of a single other one where the clubs have put out a journal several times a year…
Context, caves in Derbyshire are as foreign as caves in Spain in that I’m just as unlikely to visit them. If Tim puts up something about Portland, I’ll read it. Similarly Mendips, South Wales and Devon.
But where I live there’s no chance of me going digging every week. I’m a crap photographer and absolutely nobody wants to read yet another trip report about the Short Round or similar.
I’m not sure what point I’m trying to make (or even if there is one!), but I’ve been involved in many activities over the years; diving, rowing, caving, powerboat racing, climbing, etc., some of them professionally, and I can’t think of a single other one where the clubs have put out a journal several times a year…
nearlywhite
Active member
A small part of me thinks it's a little bit of covid lag but I suspect if you go back through issues that might not bear out.
I think this mirrors society at large and the decline in local news.
We have a diminishing number of publications, and a diminishing number of contributors. I think it's natural to focus on the bigger and more impressive news in a concentrated media environment, just like you don't hear as much about council elections as you do national ones.
I think every club I've ever been a part of bemoans the lack of news and communication with members. When looking at a few clubs I'm a member of, both here and abroad, there is a lot of digital publishing and a lot of what I would call 'soft' publishing - club websites, blogs, facebook, email circulars, posts on UKCaving etc. These are good but highly perishable. We've moved from being more regionally based caving population to a higher proportion being nationally based and we only have one 'paper of record'. This means there's only so much readership demand to develop authors with and a smaller pool of people who get into that habit of writing. How do we fix that? That is hard.
Also 'Foreign stuff' really? Would it have been that hard to say international?
I think this mirrors society at large and the decline in local news.
We have a diminishing number of publications, and a diminishing number of contributors. I think it's natural to focus on the bigger and more impressive news in a concentrated media environment, just like you don't hear as much about council elections as you do national ones.
I think every club I've ever been a part of bemoans the lack of news and communication with members. When looking at a few clubs I'm a member of, both here and abroad, there is a lot of digital publishing and a lot of what I would call 'soft' publishing - club websites, blogs, facebook, email circulars, posts on UKCaving etc. These are good but highly perishable. We've moved from being more regionally based caving population to a higher proportion being nationally based and we only have one 'paper of record'. This means there's only so much readership demand to develop authors with and a smaller pool of people who get into that habit of writing. How do we fix that? That is hard.
Also 'Foreign stuff' really? Would it have been that hard to say international?
PeteHall
Moderator
How many of those clubs were focused on doing something new, for example original exploration or research and development?
Historically, I believe the purpose of a caving club journals was to record original exploration, publish research, review new equipment and techniques, relay club news to the membership, etc.
The list is much shorter for many of the other clubs you mention, so no surprise that they didn't feel the need to publish a journal.
For recreational/ sporting caving clubs, there is little point in producing a journal or newsletter.
But for any club doing original exploration, or developing new equipment or techniques a regular publication is extremely useful. The CDG springs to mind as one such organisation, where a wealth of information is published on a regular basis, providing a valuable resource to members and subscribers. Not a pretty picture in sight either!
JohnMCooper
Active member
Originally stated as a monthly Newsletter but each Editor can choose how to produce it. At present it is done Quarterly but retains the numbering system by rolling 3 months into 1 publication. That's why it says 1-3 Jan/Feb/Mar
langcliffe
Well-known member
I'd suggest, if anyone is like OR or Pitlamp, that they try to broaden their mind by engaging with peoples stories of foreign caving, some of them are really quite exciting.
That really is quite patronising, if not downright rude, and an emoji doesn't make it less so.
I am sure that the explorations were exciting for those involved, but personally, I know little of many of the areas being described, and without having a clear context of the explorations, cannot engage with the accounts. There are exceptions - the explorations in Pozo Azul are extraordinary, and I find those write ups riveting.
I do have my international interests, such as the caves of the French pre-Alps. To keep up to date with developments there, I buy French magazines.
As you rightly say, "everybody has their own preferences on the content they like to read and no outlet can please all the people all of the time." It's up to the editor to determine the contents of the magazine, and it's up to the subscriber to decide whether it is worth renewing.
mrodoc
Well-known member
Like Langcliffe I feel it is the content of the stories about foreign caving that is a factor. Pozo Azul's exploration is so extraordinary it would be criminal not to share the tale. Some reports do become a bit hackneyed and I then lose that sense of connection one needs. Sometimes there is a lack of orientation for the first time reader and cave names could be explained even they are in jokes. Brings the whole thing to life.
I'll jump back in if I may and expand on the points I was making a few days ago.
It is difficult to write good articles on UK caving activities with any frequency as just not that much happens across the regions. It is possible if you are an entertaining writer to publish interesting stuff on different angles of caving but that relies on individuals doing so. That happens more rarely.
I'm part of a very active group in the Dales who dig at least twice a week and have been quite successful over many years. Even so with the best will in the world we cannot fill the pages of magazines with our exploits. We do try, especially one of our group, who is a prolific writer, both in Descent and other media.
International caving is very different in the way it takes place and can therefore be reported on. Usually we are talking of a sizable group of cavers who spend a significant amount of time focusing on one area or objective quite intensely. This usually generates enough of a good story to form a 4-6 page article. There may be 10-20 such caving trips abroad by UK cavers each year. Not all get written up in mainstream caving media but enough do to dominate particular issues of our only 'national' magazine. For me I want to read about what other cavers are doing where ever it is. I'm happy to read about access issues, conservation, period pains, caving on Mars, whatever. Some with more relish than others, of course.
I could quite easily decide that I'm not interested in what goes on in Mendip, or South Wales, or where ever, and then I too could point out that there isn't enough coverage of what I want to see. I don't entertain this because I know how difficult it is to generate content where there is just not so much and the difficulty in getting cavers to write entertaining articles in the first place.
So, at the risk of sounding patronising or rude, which I didn't intend, I'll repeat that I think cavers should try to broaden there interests in terms of what they read about. Have a look at what others are doing outside their own groups. Get inspired perhaps, learn more, but with all due respect, the title of this thread does come over as being very small minded. Sorry.
It is difficult to write good articles on UK caving activities with any frequency as just not that much happens across the regions. It is possible if you are an entertaining writer to publish interesting stuff on different angles of caving but that relies on individuals doing so. That happens more rarely.
I'm part of a very active group in the Dales who dig at least twice a week and have been quite successful over many years. Even so with the best will in the world we cannot fill the pages of magazines with our exploits. We do try, especially one of our group, who is a prolific writer, both in Descent and other media.
International caving is very different in the way it takes place and can therefore be reported on. Usually we are talking of a sizable group of cavers who spend a significant amount of time focusing on one area or objective quite intensely. This usually generates enough of a good story to form a 4-6 page article. There may be 10-20 such caving trips abroad by UK cavers each year. Not all get written up in mainstream caving media but enough do to dominate particular issues of our only 'national' magazine. For me I want to read about what other cavers are doing where ever it is. I'm happy to read about access issues, conservation, period pains, caving on Mars, whatever. Some with more relish than others, of course.
I could quite easily decide that I'm not interested in what goes on in Mendip, or South Wales, or where ever, and then I too could point out that there isn't enough coverage of what I want to see. I don't entertain this because I know how difficult it is to generate content where there is just not so much and the difficulty in getting cavers to write entertaining articles in the first place.
So, at the risk of sounding patronising or rude, which I didn't intend, I'll repeat that I think cavers should try to broaden there interests in terms of what they read about. Have a look at what others are doing outside their own groups. Get inspired perhaps, learn more, but with all due respect, the title of this thread does come over as being very small minded. Sorry.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Personally, I think that cavers should be allowed to get on with reading what they want to without being lectured at. But hey, ho. I am happy to differ, and be classified as one of the very small-minded brigade.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I think I understand what you're trying to say Badlad.
On the subject of:
"I'm part of a very active group in the Dales who dig at least twice a week and have been quite successful over many years. Even so with the best will in the world we cannot fill the pages of magazines with our exploits. We do try, especially one of our group, who is a prolific writer, both in Descent and other media."
Your gang has generated some first class printed material on a regular basis; you've certainly done your "bit". It's been very much appreciated.
On the subject of:
"I'm part of a very active group in the Dales who dig at least twice a week and have been quite successful over many years. Even so with the best will in the world we cannot fill the pages of magazines with our exploits. We do try, especially one of our group, who is a prolific writer, both in Descent and other media."
Your gang has generated some first class printed material on a regular basis; you've certainly done your "bit". It's been very much appreciated.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Now that I can agree with.
Maisie Syntax
Active member
PeteHall
Moderator
Back to my earlier point. What's stopping a sizeable group of cavers, spending a significant amount of time focusing on one area or objective in the UK? This would generate just as good a story (and more relatable to many UK cavers) as an overseas expedition.
I am quite astounded that so many cavers seem to have such strong views on the environment, yet prefer to put the effort into caving overseas, when the same effort could be just as rewarding locally.
However, this isn't the reason I've never caved overseas. Neither is it because I think foreign caves wouldn't be interesting, but because I haven't run out of things to do locally yet. I've got several unfinished projects within 45 minutes of home, so travelling half way around the world seems entirely pointless (and very expensive), but each to their own.
