Trespass

Ed

Active member
mikem said:
Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_is_a_climax_forest

A forest was unenclosed / uncultivated land kept as a hunting estate - often containing woodland but not exclusively

- hence the legal powers of Foresters (estate police for want of better description). The were constables of the hunting estate not lumberjack / wood collectors. Epping Forest Keepers and Hampstead Heath Constabulary

Alot were acquired by the monasteries and turned over to wool and charcoal production 

Common modern mistake think of forest as woodland ---
 

mikem

Well-known member
Even though the main quarry species were woodland ones! But by the time of the Domesday book, trees were already down to 15% of land over (& reduced to 7% by increasing populations, before they started to replant).

Meanwhile Mother Nature does just restock by trial & error, until there is some sort of balance.
 

crickleymal

New member
mikem said:
Even though the main quarry species were woodland ones! But by the time of the Domesday book, trees were already down to 15% of land over (& reduced to 7% by increasing populations, before they started to replant).

Meanwhile Mother Nature does just restock by trial & error, until there is some sort of balance.
I have it on fairly good authority that the Forest of Dean was open fields until the late saxon period. Lidar scans have revealed prehistoric field systems.
 

Kenilworth

New member
droid said:
Kenilworth said:
Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.

The information came from my Ecology lecturer at Newcastle University, and he observed it from childhood, so I proffer the possibility that his knowledge of woodland ecology is rather more than yours  :LOL:

As you've said before. I remain unimpressed.

His knowledge of woodland ecology may well be immense. In which case you've misunderstood or misrepresented him, or he's a propagandist. More likely though he was simply ignorant, and the misunderstanding was his own. Either way, it has been very lazy of you to cite such obvious silliness for so long.

Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur, but not an ignoramus, and not likely to color my learning with politics.
 

droid

Active member
Kenilworth said:
Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur,s.

It may be 'a passion' but it seems rather unpolluted by anything like understanding.

You like over-complicating things. As you do with caving, the cod philosophy and unwillingness to accept the views of others, so you are with ecology. Maybe you do it to 'prove' you aren't an ignoramus.

Woodland ecology isn't 'astoundingly complex', even at graduate level.
 

Duck ditch

New member
My knowledge of woodland, heaths and moorland is very small.
However I doubt very much that our habitats require any more red legged partridges and pheasants  . Especially as they are only bred to get shot later for fun.  Even Then they could tidy up after themselves.
Are there any knowledgeable scientific papers arguing that It?s better to release these non native species to improve habitats?
Our heather moorland is improved to help the native red grouse. Now people are telling me it?s too degraded to do anything else.  Well I say we could easily manipulate this moorland so that I can go hunting the native sphagnum moss or admire the hunting skills of hen harriers and short eared owls.

 

mikem

Well-known member
There are plenty of papers arguing against the numbers involved, but they generally don't have any suggestions for not turning the woodlands into fields for greater profit...
 

Kenilworth

New member
droid said:
Kenilworth said:
Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur,s.

It may be 'a passion' but it seems rather unpolluted by anything like understanding.

You like over-complicating things. As you do with caving, the cod philosophy and unwillingness to accept the views of others, so you are with ecology. Maybe you do it to 'prove' you aren't an ignoramus.

Woodland ecology isn't 'astoundingly complex', even at graduate level.

:) I'm not interested in graduate level ecology, or any such little games. This is in large part because I seek understanding, not scholarly indoctrination. Understanding depends on gathering information, including listening to the views of others, but not on accepting everything, be it said by the Professor, or a stranger on the internet, or the farmer down the lane. Information must be tested against the world and against other information. As in most things, I am yet far from understanding.

You may truly find ecology to be a simple matter. Maybe it is. Perhaps I overcomplicate it. I find it to be complex, which is to find it interesting and enriching. Perhaps my small mind has blessed me by making the world appear so abundant. Anyway, have you ever considered the full meaning of the claim you've cited? Can you explain the process and how it is possible?
 

Duck ditch

New member
I was prepared to read a scientific paper that says pheasants are good for woodland ecology. Is there one? 
Not one that says not really but if you want to make a profit, do this. That?s not science.
Its like reading A paper on how Vadose canyons are caused by erosion but there is no money in it until you make it into a show cave.
I do take the point though. There is no money in tiding up the rubbish abandoned or admiring hen harriers. Whereas admiring your killing skills against the  pheasant in a battle of wits, gun against beak turns a decent profit.
 

2xw

Active member
ChrisJC said:
2xw said:
They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order!

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

Chris.

The natural succession of heather is that it becomes tall and rank, and as the land gets wetter the heather falls over and becomes a matrix for growth of sphagnum.

Unfortunately because many moorlands (that should be blanket bog) were drained with dug channels (this is mostly not a grouse moor thing, but due to post-war pressures to convert land for agricultural use) the land will stay dry.

This increases the risk of wildfire which sets things back and consequently if you want degraded moorland to come back to a beneficial blanket bog you need a campaign of ditch blocking, and, sometimes management of Calluna overdominance (but not via burning it!). In the most degraded peatlands it requires liming, seeding with lowland grass, gully blocking, stabilisation with geotextiles and brash spreading.

For some examples of ecosystems that definitely would not have/haven't been reinvigorated on their own, visit Moorhouse in Teesdale, the top of Kinder Scout, most of the Eastern Moors in the Peak, most of the land the Yorkshire Peat Partnership is working on, Knockfin Heights in Scotland, in fact have a look on Google earth at any area with bare peat and I can guarantee you that needs a restoration.

Some people use examples of slag heaps with plants on them etc, but this isn't really an example of nature recovering - it's an example of nature surviving.

Duckditch, there is no doubt some papers that present evidence of benefits from shoot management and pheasant stocking for woodland ecology. That's because if you ask a scientist a question you're likely to get three answers. Have a gander at the GWCT site. 

The problem with all of these discussions on land management is that we must first decide what we want from the land.

Do we want upland heath, moor, and bog to provide clean water and carbon sequestration benefits? Then we need to rewet them and embark on peatland restoration programmes. This doesn't necessarily exclude hunting, but probably does exclude driven grouse.

Do we want our uplands peatlands to trend to their "natural" successional state, which appears to be birch scrub followed by eventual forest? Fine, but we'd probably have to take radical actions to offset the carbon losses this would entail - perhaps completely banning cars and aeroplanes.

I suppose there's also the option of keeping grouse moors as they are, which entails us paying higher water bills and offsetting the other associated negatives. In which case dig ditches and burn away!

Other options include true "rewilding" (just leaving them) which would result in wildfire, carbon loss and heather monocultures.

If we were really imaginative we could convert it to productive land and lead the world in cranberry production!
 

JasonC

Well-known member
Duck ditch said:
.....Whereas admiring your killing skills against the  pheasant in a battle of wits, gun against beak turns a decent profit.

Whatever pheasant-shooting is (besides a disgusting exhibition of wealth), it isn't a battle of wits.  Pheasants must be the stupidest birds in creation, to judge by the number that hurl themselves into traffic.
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
I'm enjoying the mixing of the two arguments here - blatant classism (jealousy?) and the ecology of abandoned landscapes!

Chris.
 
I think that part of what is misinforming this debate is the classic idea of a single 'climax' community. The desire to keep nature in a single 'ideal' state (especially closed canopy forest!) is what gets us into trouble a lot of the time. The current prevailing idea is of a natural cycle, with a pioneer and mature stage as in the classical model, but with two stages of destruction (e.g. wildfire) and restructure (e.g. decomposition) completing the cycle. This restructure is where ecosystems can shift to a different organisation to adapt to changing conditions. Trying to suppress the destruction is generally what leads to larger collapse (e.g. building up of fuel load leading to unprecedented fires). For the seminal paper (with examples) on this see Holling 1994 'Simplifying the Complex' (for the full paper try scihub).

Suffice to say, I don't really believe in woodlands being our ideal state, especially on peat lands. The natural state would likely be something more akin to your deer forests, with patches of mature vegetation and different habitats e.g. grassland between - variation in the stages of the cycle in both time and space, with different 'climax' stable species assemblages. Modern ecological science believes that for one set of conditions there can be a number of stable states of an ecosystem for a given set of conditions, with the previous states determining which state is currently present. (see the science of tipping points e.g. Scheffer 2009 for some quite interesting but dense information on this).

The summary of this rambling is that I don't think that 2xw is either advocating keeping grouse moors as it's easier, or that humans know better for the ecosystem. It's simply that there are multiple 'climax' ecosystems that could be occupying this land, principally a deciduous forest or a blanket bog. One of these (the forest) will involve the release of a shedload of stored carbon currently in the form of peat as the soils dry out. However with the state that we've left the peat in, it is more likely to naturally succeed to forest (Though it is worth pointing out that neither end point is no more or less 'natural' than the other - it really depends on where you place the goalposts). It is not easy to shift the system back to blanket bog, but the end point is theoretically achievable in our climatic conditions, and has a massive benefit in terms of carbon storage, water quality, flood prevention, wildfire reduction.

Me and 2xw both have worked on the moors and seen the reality of this work. It is ecological engineering on a massive scale, with gully blocking, reseeding etc as previously mentioned; but is justifiable in my opinion. However, someone needs to pay for it (currently in the Peak this is in no small part an EU Life grant). The grouse moors are unlikely to pay too much towards it as it interferes with their sport. It is very unsurprising that a system designed for the fun of the rich few is not well designed for the needs of the many who actually live near the moors. Of course it is a very complicated question with many different stakeholders (e.g. what happens when the moors are too wet for the ramblers to cross Kinder Scout?). And it is certainly not rewilding......
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
I was walking up past Old Gang and round the back of Surrender yesterday and there were tons of new grouse butts, with loads of new timer for building more. All the butts seem to be next to the track, so I guess someone ferries the 'sportsmen' up in a lanrover, and they stagger a few metres to their butt.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
RobinGriffiths said:
I was walking up past Old Gang and round the back of Surrender yesterday and there were tons of new grouse butts, with loads of new timer for building more. All the butts seem to be next to the track, so I guess someone ferries the 'sportsmen' up in a lanrover, and they stagger a few metres to their butt.

It is somewhat dwarfed by the 3 million who go fishing. I see little difference except the average cost. Paying to shoot is a bit naff really. One should only shoot on ones own land, or reciprocally with acquaintances. Top end fishing is certainly more posh and expensive than grouse shooting.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
2xw said:
If anyone's interested in some of the eco-philosoohy, there's Monbiots "feral" which argues for (British) rewilding, and for the counterpoint there's an essay "the problem with wilderness" by Cronon here: http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html#:~:text=But%20the%20trouble%20with%20wilderness,its%20devotees%20seek%20to%20reject.&text=If%20we%20allow%20ourselves%20to,place%20where%20nature%20is%20not.

Monbiot is increasingly tiresome. The UK has barely half the land area of Montana (as an example), with 60 times the population. The reality of England in particular is that we are talking about small nature preserves for recreation and general ambiance amongst an urban and intensive agricultural environment. We should do what it is possible, but there needs to be a sense of reality that is often absent in Islington.

Articles that effectively advocate using granite as aquifers make your eyes roll a bit. Cut and paste Google engineering doesn?t always work. Someone needs to tell him that trees are not always an optimal end point.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Fjell said:
It is somewhat dwarfed by the 3 million who go fishing. I see little difference except the average cost. Paying to shoot is a bit naff really. One should only shoot on ones own land, or reciprocally with acquaintances. Top end fishing is certainly more posh and expensive than grouse shooting.

A few years ago I was invited to join a local fishing club on a Derbyshire river and it was ?500 joining fee, plus ?200 a season - limited to 16 people a year on a 2-mile stretch, with loads of restrictions on tackle and technique. I pointed out that I can fish on the River Don, more or less identical in stock, geography and general natural beauty, from Deepcar near Stocksbridge to Meadowhall retail park, halfway to Rotherham, for free - about 15 miles in total. Of course most people who pay to fish won't fish that area because it's free - and it's not in Derbyshire. It's still full of trout and grayling though.
 
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