Trespass

[mikem]

The things he wrote about are for pheasant shoots, not grouse. They generally take place in different habitats & most pheasant shoots are not on public or access land.

Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

 

[ChrisJC]

Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

Chris.

 

[2xw]

Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

Chris.

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

 

[JoshW]

Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

Chris.

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

genuine question out of interest, would more or less work be required to 'repair it' than is put in to maintain the moors for shooting etc.

 

[ChrisJC]

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

I'm going to play devils advocate here because I don't believe you.

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order! The only place I can think of that has defied nature is Parys Mountain on Anglesey, and that is a whole lot different.

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

Chris.

 

[droid]

I agree with Chris.

I've heard of coal waste heaps progressing to near climax woodland within about 40 years. And there was/is a patch of moorland opposite Lawrencefield Estate near Hathersage that's gone the same way once the sheep were kicked off it.

 

[tamarmole]

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

I'm going to play devils advocate here because I don't believe you.

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order! The only place I can think of that has defied nature is Parys Mountain on Anglesey, and that is a whole lot different.

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

Chris.

I agree with Chris.  In my neck of the woods we had  several of the world's largest arsenic producer's which are happily being reclaimed by nature.

 

[mikem]

Yes, the woodland will take over, but that's not the habitat that is required by hen harrier & merlin, and it's not as effective a carbon store as peat bog.

 

[Kenilworth]

Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.

The succession of forest species is astoundingly complex and relatively swift, but it cannot be accomplished to anything near completion in the span of a single human life. This is especially true when topsoil has been eroded, removed, or depleted.

From an ecological standpoint, the most efficient way to "reclaim" a forest is to leave it alone. It works every single time. The process can be speeded up, but not without risks, or costs of money, time, and damage, which do not need to be paid.

 

[mikem]

Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_is_a_climax_forest

 

[kay]

It was Kay's maths that didn't work (but it was based on a misrepresentation of the figures).

Based on the figures given, in what way was my arithmetic wrong? Are you suggesting that 15% isn't, as an approximation, about twice 7%?

The statement may be wrong (as it was based on a figure that was wrong) but the "maths" wasn't.

 

[mikem]

I didn't say your maths was wrong, I said it didn't work. I thought the same as you, that 15% was total land area, so the maths in the book was incorrect...

 

[kay]

Yes, the woodland will take over, but that's not the habitat that is required by hen harrier & merlin, and it's not as effective a carbon store as peat bog.

Is it really "rewilding" to intervene to design the habitat you want?

Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

I believe "forest" originally denoted "hunting ground" which by definition wouldn't work with a dense tree cover.

 

[mikem]

There isn't really any wild habitat left in the UK anyway. Red deer, wild boar & aurochs are all woodland species.

 

[ChrisJC]

Is it really "rewilding" to intervene to design the habitat you want?

It's not really any different to the present situation - just a different designer and objective.

It's a question of who is claiming the moral high ground, either ecologically or socioeconomically.

Chris.

 

[A_Northerner]

The way I understand it as a layperson is that the moors need to be managed to keep them as peat moors. 2xw isn't saying that they won't "return to nature" if they're left alone but this wouldn't be the most carbon-economical method of managing the moors.

It's not "re-wilding" and it doesn't claim to be - it's land management.

If the moors are left as they are (cut for drainage to provide natural habitat for grouse) then they'll be more likely to burn every year and release all the carbon they have stored. Whereas a managed return to moorland involves building in water retention and stuff.

 

[Duck ditch]

I don?t think it?s too hard to claim the moral high ground over people who kills animals for fun.  It?s a very low bar to get over. 
However even these people could tidy up after themselves.  The chequerboard look of northern England On google is very depressing for me. 
Also, the argument that the ground is so degraded that we might as well carry on, seems a poor argument to me.  It?s less than 200 years of misuse on an earth that?s 4 billion years old or even 6000yrs old if that?s how your brain works.

 

[droid]

Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.

The information came from my Ecology lecturer at Newcastle University, and he observed it from childhood, so I proffer the possibility that his knowledge of woodland ecology is rather more than yours 

 

[Badlad]

Human arrogance is such that it believes humans can manage land much better than mother nature.  I'm pretty sure that is misguided.

 

[A_Northerner]

Human arrogance is such that it believes humans can manage land much better than mother nature.  I'm pretty sure that is misguided.

Well... we kinda can. By studying how nature "manages land" on its own, we can work alongside it to speed up the process of reinvigoration.

The exact woodland that droid is referring to, opposite Lawrencefield Estate, hasn't been restored entirely naturally it's been helped along by Park Rangers because they understand how pioneering woodland develops and can speed the process up.