Try Caving

[cap n chris]

A quick summary for you.

No insurance = many caves locked and off limits.
No insurance = non-functioning clubs, no trips; no accommodation.

 

[graham]

Without insurance many caves would be closed and that would hit most of the "best" caves by any ones judgement.

Remember the emergency closures which occurred during the insurance "hiccup"? - Remember the clubs whose officers all resigned, en masse, with immediate effect? No?

I do.

Do tell us more as I was unaware of it....

Well, in our part of the world, all those access agreements that rely on insurance being in place were suspended, including the Charterhouse area & the Fairy Quarry caves; in Wales certainly DYO was shut to cavers and I suspect others, too, though I don't have the details to hand. I assume in your part of the world Peak, at least, would have been shut 'cos you need BC(R)A insurance for that, don't you?

 

[nickwilliams]

Well, in our part of the world, all those access agreements that rely on insurance being in place were suspended, including the Charterhouse area & the Fairy Quarry caves; in Wales certainly DYO was shut to cavers and I suspect others, too, though I don't have the details to hand. I assume in your part of the world Peak, at least, would have been shut 'cos you need BC(R)A insurance for that, don't you?

Peak was closed for a few weeks only, but since the DCA scheme was separate at that point, and continued while the BCRA scheme was suspended, there was minimal impact in the Peak District.

Nick.

 

[AndyF]

A quick summary for you.

No insurance = many caves locked and off limits.
No insurance = non-functioning clubs, no trips; no accommodation.

No insurance = non-functioning clubs, no trips; no accommodation.

Err, our club didn't has never stop functioning, not did we stop going on trips and nor did we have problems with accomodation......

Some caves specify "insurance" some may specify BCA/BCRA insurance. I have addiional insurance by another route, so that would cover some of the closures.

 

[graham]

A quick summary for you.

No insurance = many caves locked and off limits.
No insurance = non-functioning clubs, no trips; no accommodation.

No insurance = non-functioning clubs, no trips; no accommodation.

Err, our club didn't has never stop functioning, not did we stop going on trips and nor did we have problems with accomodation......

Some caves specify "insurance" some may specify BCA/BCRA insurance. I have addiional insurance by another route, so that would cover some of the closures.

Our club didn't stop functioning either - though it came close during FMD - but that's not really the point. The insurance glitch of a few years ago was (in hindsight) a very temporary situation & so its effects were mitigated somewhat. However, if the problem were to continue for an extended period then the effects would be far greater.

I, too, carry additional insurance, in my case I have FFS cover, via the SUI or by my French club. Now, it may be that if UK caver numbers fell to such levels that the current BCA cover was no longer viable that UK cavers could join the FFS scheme, as the Irish & the Belgians do. There is also a Swiss scheme though I know nothing about it save its existence.

However, none of those alternatives allow us to offer the landowner indemnities that the BCA scheme does. Lack of that facility could easily lead to withdrawal of access in some areas and would certainly cause problems for those access bodies whose activities might leave them liable to a negligence claim.

 

[nickwilliams]

Some caves specify "insurance" some may specify BCA/BCRA insurance. I have addiional insurance by another route, so that would cover some of the closures.

Very unlikely. Your own insurance almost certainly fails to provide the landowner indemnity which is the fundamental reason for the existence of the BCA scheme and which is a condition of the access agreements where insurance is an issue. As I have already explained elsewhere on this forum, it's not you that needs to be insured for this risk, it is the landowner, and the fact that we are paying to insure the landowners is what is special about the BCA scheme.

Nick.

 

[nickwilliams]

I, too, carry additional insurance, in my case I have FFS cover, via the SUI or by my French club.

I've just been looking at the FFS scheme as a possible source of cover for a trip to Mulu, and I have to say that I am far from convinced that it will in fact cover UK residents. I'm not saying that it doesn't - but you'd be wise to check with someone who can give an authoritative answer before you relied on it. I am pretty certain that residents of Eire and N. Ireland will be OK, since the SUI have an arrangement with the FFS which defines the whole of Ireland as a departement of France for the purposes of insurance, but that arrangement does not extend to the rest of the UK.

If you have a means of checking up on this via your French club, I'd be very interested to know what you can find out. But don't bother to ask SUI - we have already tried and got a less than unequivocal answer, and I don't want to cause more trouble by bothering them again on this topic.

Nick.

 

[AndyF]

Some caves specify "insurance" some may specify BCA/BCRA insurance. I have addiional insurance by another route, so that would cover some of the closures.

Very unlikely. Your own insurance almost certainly fails to provide the landowner indemnity which is the fundamental reason for the existence of the BCA scheme and which is a condition of the access agreements where insurance is an issue. As I have already explained elsewhere on this forum, it's not you that needs to be insured for this risk, it is the landowner, and the fact that we are paying to insure the landowners is what is special about the BCA scheme.

Nick.

It's the PDMHS one (by vitue of membership) - I don't know the exact details, I'll find out as I ought to know what it does exactly.

I take your point though, that the BCA scheme provides the landowner indemnity, and I can see this is a very important feature that they provide.

 

[nickwilliams]

It's the PDMHS one (by vitue of membership) - I don't know the exact details, I'll find out as I ought to know what it does exactly.

Thanks, I'll be interested to know what you can find out. I've tried to find out more about the PDHMS cover before and failed. I don't think anyone's trying to keep the details from me, it's just it's been kind of forgotten about.

Nick.




[/quote]

 

[AndyF]

The point made elsewhere that if a claim were ever made then that would be a disaster is worth repeating....

Insurers would then run a mile from it.....


Wonder how other sports deal with this, eg gliding clubs, motocross sites, divers in rivers etc....

 

[Bob Mehew]

The point made elsewhere that if a claim were ever made then that would be a disaster is worth repeating....

Wonder how other sports deal with this, eg gliding clubs, motocross sites, divers in rivers etc....

To emphasise the point, almost any claim, serious or frivolous might well precipitate the disaster.

Re others, some have given up and have altered things so they can do without.  Most professional cavers are finding it impossible to get affordable cover if it is their sole activity.  I believe Outdoor Activity Centres manage by paying a large sum which is only covered by a large through put of people which individual's can achieve.

So far no one has seen a legal way around the land owner indemnity demand for caving.  And I emphasise "legal" as we can't be seen to condone illegal ways.  (In any case it is not clear if trespass would remove all of the liability though it would certainly reduce it.)

 

[Hammy]

Most professional cavers are finding it impossible to get affordable cover if it is their sole activity. 

This is not the case, though it depends on your definition of 'affordable'.

Try Jardine Lloyd Thompson for a quote.

http://www.adventureactivityinsurance.com/index.shtml

 

[Clarie]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again here. I can never work out why people are hell bent on attracting as many people underground as possibe.

I'm feeling very naive as I read this thread.. the reason I encourage my friends/ co-workers / family / random strangers on the street to go caving is because I love it.

Surely the ordinary response to anything you enjoy and love is to share it with other people, because they too may enjoy it?

And as for clubs being welcoming to newbies, I've got to say that mine is fantastic. I'm an ex-student caver myself, but I've been encouraged to bring along as many friends as I like since I re-started caving regularly. I am completely confident in doing so - I know they will be welcomed, lent kit, looked after, trips will be adjusted according to their ability, and every person I've taken underground has enjoyed it, thanked me for doing so, and even returned.

 

[Bob Mehew]

This is not the case, though it depends on your definition of 'affordable'.

Precisely, professional caving is a very low paid profession, especailly by those who do it possibly once or twice a week.    Hence my use of the word impossible.  Most these days can only afford it by sub contracting to Outdoor Activity Centres who carry the insurance burden.  Try asking a professional caver for his opinion about insurance.

I recall Jardine Lloyd Thompson were unable to make an offer BCRA or BCA several years ago.  I also have a vague recollection that their linked organisation, the Institute for Outdoor Learning stopped (or would not give new) cover to professional cavers. 

 

[Hammy]

I also have a vague recollection that their linked organisation, the Institute for Outdoor Learning stopped (or would not give new) cover to professional cavers. 

Things have changed in my opinion. As suggested try JLT.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Thanks for the suggestion Hammy, I will pass it on to those who were complaining about the lack of insurance.

Bob

 

[mak]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again here. I can never work out why people are hell bent on attracting as many people underground as possibe.

I'm feeling very naive as I read this thread.. the reason I encourage my friends/ co-workers / family / random strangers on the street to go caving is because I love it.

Surely the ordinary response to anything you enjoy and love is to share it with other people, because they too may enjoy it?

is


Well done clarie ... that is exactly the reason I like to take people caving.

We are all wasting time responding to a deliberate troll in trying to justify the club scene and why the "try caving" initiative exist.

Instead we should be challenging why someone is so selfish that they would deny others access to the sport of caving?

 

[cap n chris]

Hang on! If someone says they don't understand why so-and-so is hell bent on attracting lots of people etc., how does that equate to them being selfish and attempting to deny others? Or am I reading this wrong?  For instance, I don't understand what the attraction is of TV but I'm not trying to stop anyone from watching it.

 

[hell little caver]

this thead is making me sad. Chris and others are trying to make the sport better and i have to say that i get very tired of telling everyone when dissussing what i do and i say caving that they all have this horrid idea of what it might entail, having never had a chance to go. I want to encourge new people and show them the joy of what i experience!

club huts to many people are the back bone they allow you to meet with others with the same interest, as a caver who joined her club at 16 i was welcomed so much and the social side made me feel very welcome and no my family don't cave and i see what most clubs provide a large new network of friends, as well as a wealth of information and knowledge.

i think that the weekend is a good idea and we should rember that some one once took us to try caving and for many people gave them a new non conpetitive sport which in my eyes is one of the most socially diverse groups of people I have ever had the opportunity to meet.

sorry for this little rant

 

[Peter Burgess]

Hell Little Caver: these people you complain about are expressing their opinions - and that's all. Your opinion is just as valid, and I am absolutely sure that you are in by far the largest majority of cavers. So let the critics rage and rant, if those with a positive attitude get involved, then it will work. If it doesn't work, then it's not the negatives that will stop it working, it will be the lack of positives.