Chris J
Active member
AndyF said:
Of course the infra structure may shrink to fit the number of cavers - and the big question is, are you happy with a smaller infra structure? - what do you think is the acceptable number of cavers? what sort of infra structure suits you? At what point do you get pissed off that you can't get a bit of kit or get access to a cave?
Do you like that fact that you can buy caving kit or would you be happy with modified climbing gear? Got a nice oversuit or is a boiler suit ok? What about ropes, bolts and ladders? lights? guide books? tacklebags?
I'd rather not do without any of these - but that is just me!
I also don't like the idea of not having a national governing body with a voice which is loud enough to negotiate on my behalf. Lets face it - minorities always have a fight on their hands and we are already fighting with bureaucracy
What happens to the rescue organisations? the expertise and training which is built into clubs and organisations?
Yes caving might cope if there were half the number of active cavers there are now - may be even fewer - but it starts to get difficult!
Of course I could go on and on listing things we might miss and you could come back with alternatives but every piece of infrastructure removed makes caving more difficult - I like the infrastructure the way it is and I simply want to maintain the status quo. The problem is that 20 years of the 'we don't want more cavers' attitude is catching up in the form of a very large age gap!
In order to do this we need to start talking to people about what it is we do and see if they want to get involved - don't kid yourselves - caving is most peoples idea of a nightmare - we're unlike to be overun by hordes!
All this initiative is about is ensuring caving (the way I know it and love it) has a future! This means I want the future of caving to be club huts full of rowdy cavers, with a fantastic history of exploration and expeditions - I want caving to continue the way it is - not deteriorate into a few lone cavers scratching through the remenants of sport never able to do half of what has been done.
Elaine
Active member
Assuming that the 'Try Caving' day does actually attract the sort of interest we want, then what do these new recruits do next?
Presumably they go to a club? Are the clubs going to be ready for them?
I haven't read all of the threads in detail on this topic, and I may have missed this (in which case sorry), but surely we will need to know which clubs to point our beginners to knowing that they are ready prepared to run weekly/fortnightly trips for them until they are proficient or confident enough to make their own arrangements.
I am probably wrong, but I thought that one of the trickiest obstacles about getting into caving is finding yourself a group to go regularly with. If an increase in caver numbers is the intent of this project then this second step should not be overlooked or all the potential newbies will drift back to their televisions! (ignore patronising tone!)
Presumably they go to a club? Are the clubs going to be ready for them?
I haven't read all of the threads in detail on this topic, and I may have missed this (in which case sorry), but surely we will need to know which clubs to point our beginners to knowing that they are ready prepared to run weekly/fortnightly trips for them until they are proficient or confident enough to make their own arrangements.
I am probably wrong, but I thought that one of the trickiest obstacles about getting into caving is finding yourself a group to go regularly with. If an increase in caver numbers is the intent of this project then this second step should not be overlooked or all the potential newbies will drift back to their televisions! (ignore patronising tone!)
kay
Well-known member
SamT said:
I don't know any schools around here (on the edge of the Dales) who have an active school caving club, not every youngster joins the scouts, more than half our young people don't go to uni. Isn't the 'try caving' a useful mechanism for those who haven't had the chance otherwise?
I'm a totally non-sporty type, turned off by the team games of my school - caving is something I can do (albeit at a low level), and I'm really grateful to the commerical organisation that let me go on a few 'taster days' when I was in my late 40s - it's given me a reason to be out in the fresh air and to raise my fitness levels. Although I can see the argument " why should the caves suffer just so a middle aged woman can get her exercise?"
I've always wanted to cave, but would never have joined a club to try it - far too conscious of the discrepancy between the apparent physical prowess of the average club caver and my own physical weakness.
AndyF
New member
Of course the infra structure may shrink to fit the number of cavers - and the big question is, are you happy with a smaller infra structure? - what do you think is the acceptable number of cavers? what sort of infra structure suits you? At what point do you get pissed off that you can't get a bit of kit or get access to a cave?
I can buy anything mail order - from peztl direct if necessary, or REM sports in the US. It is never going to be not possible to buy kit you want
Do you like that fact that you can buy caving kit or would you be happy with modified climbing gear? Got a nice oversuit or is a boiler suit ok? What about ropes, bolts and ladders? lights? guide books? tacklebags?
see Point above
I also don't like the idea of not having a national governing body with a voice which is loud enough to negotiate on my behalf. Lets face it - minorities always have a fight on their hands and we are already fighting with bureaucracy
I'm, trying hard to think of any interaction I've ever had with the national Bodies. I've never had expedition funding, or training, or subscribed to publications. The only think I can think of is Hidden Earth, which is great, but I've only actually been to one! I'm not "fighting bureaucracy"....I just go caving!
What happens to the rescue organisations?
This is a valid point, but relatively few people are invloved. Many countries don't actually HAVE a CRO organization.
Yes caving might cope if there were half the number of active cavers there are now - may be even fewer - but it starts to get difficult!
Still can't see how! Exactly what difficulties...?
Of course I could go on and on listing things we might miss and you could come back with alternatives but every piece of infrastructure removed makes caving more difficult - I like the infrastructure the way it is and I simply want to maintain the status quo. The problem is that 20 years of the 'we don't want more cavers' attitude is catching up in the form of a very large age gap!
it's not that "I don't want more cavers".... I just don't see it as an imperative. There are plenty of minority sports with justa few hundred participants that get on and do their thing. Caving did very well in the 50's with very few people involved.
It is amazing the number of people you speak to who have "been caving", maybe with school, outdoor pursuits etc. These people have tried and rejected it. Those actually interested have taken it up.
I can buy anything mail order - from peztl direct if necessary, or REM sports in the US. It is never going to be not possible to buy kit you want
Do you like that fact that you can buy caving kit or would you be happy with modified climbing gear? Got a nice oversuit or is a boiler suit ok? What about ropes, bolts and ladders? lights? guide books? tacklebags?
see Point above
I also don't like the idea of not having a national governing body with a voice which is loud enough to negotiate on my behalf. Lets face it - minorities always have a fight on their hands and we are already fighting with bureaucracy
I'm, trying hard to think of any interaction I've ever had with the national Bodies. I've never had expedition funding, or training, or subscribed to publications. The only think I can think of is Hidden Earth, which is great, but I've only actually been to one! I'm not "fighting bureaucracy"....I just go caving!
What happens to the rescue organisations?
This is a valid point, but relatively few people are invloved. Many countries don't actually HAVE a CRO organization.
Yes caving might cope if there were half the number of active cavers there are now - may be even fewer - but it starts to get difficult!
Still can't see how! Exactly what difficulties...?
Of course I could go on and on listing things we might miss and you could come back with alternatives but every piece of infrastructure removed makes caving more difficult - I like the infrastructure the way it is and I simply want to maintain the status quo. The problem is that 20 years of the 'we don't want more cavers' attitude is catching up in the form of a very large age gap!
it's not that "I don't want more cavers".... I just don't see it as an imperative. There are plenty of minority sports with justa few hundred participants that get on and do their thing. Caving did very well in the 50's with very few people involved.
It is amazing the number of people you speak to who have "been caving", maybe with school, outdoor pursuits etc. These people have tried and rejected it. Those actually interested have taken it up.
Chris J
Active member
AndyF said:
Well that is fine Andy - you can take the laissez-faire approach whilst I prefer to shape the future of the sport I love. I don't want to have to order stuff mail order from the U.S., I like having a national body (which I do interact with), I like being part of a caving club and I like going on expeditions - So I'm going to make sure all these things continue.
I emphasise 'continue' - this isn't about making caving the most popular sport in the world (as if it ever would be) - it is about maintaining the number of cavers and maintaining our infrastructure.
Chris J
Active member
Anne said:
Well we definately won't be recommending they join with clubs like Andy's!! - Yes, as a first point I have the clubs who have registered on the trycaving.co.uk site. Then below that - some clubs have taken the trouble to describe specific measures for novices so these are top of the 'list'.
Specifically for the weekend - those clubs which are involved I guess.
AndyF
New member
Chris J said:
I think you are misinterpreting me. You shouldn't assume I am unenthusiastic, or willing to help novices or try to introduce people to the sport. We have brought several new people in during the last couple of years, and in fact I have several up coming trips where I'm taking newbies underground. Invariably they have found us....
Our apporoach as a club, however, is very informal. More like a group of freinds with yearly subs. We don't have an application form, insurance waivers, membership approval etc. We don't have a training process. Where training has been needed, we have recommended several members go on CIC courses as they ARE the best at providing this
. We don't maintain a hut or a minibus, or have any of the headache paperwork & costs that goes with that. Never had an expedition grant, never filled in a risk assesment, never had to prepare a "working with young people" policy or any of that b*****xWe use existing accomodation if we need to. If there isn't a suitable caving hut we use a walkers bunkhouse or a gite or we camp.
We do maintain club ropes/hangers/tackle bags though, and we do have drills, generators, pumps and other digging kit. his is where our effort goes.
Our emphasis is on "going caving". No one has ever had to miss a caving trip to fix a club hut roof or fill in some paperwork.
We just don't do bureaucracy.... there is no need for it, and it just stops you doing what you want to.
As a result, we have notched up usually one, but frequently two or more foreign trips per year, plus a lot of organised digging, surveying and mine exploration. We have never relied on national organisations for support in doing this.
I'm not knocking the national bodies, and the good work that they do (
), I'm just saying it isn't the ONLY approach to this sport, and the bottom line is that if they didn't exist, I'd still be doing exactly the same sort of caving as I've done for 20 years.Andy Sparrow
Active member
A couple of people have made points which I feel are very important. These are:
1. That many, many people (particularly young people) are currently given an experience of caving but precious few choose to take it up.
2. That clubs need to have some follow-up program to the Try Caving event.
While I support the Try Caving weekend in principle I do not expect it to be very successful in recruiting new cavers. Based on my (considerable) experience I would estimate that only a minute number of first time cavers are sufficiently inspired to take it up seriously - maybe one in a thousand. There are already many outdoor centres, scout groups and caving instructors who routinely introduce people to caving - why not leave them to fulfill this task and concentrate on the really crucial issue? The real problem as I see it is that many clubs do not have the internal structures that new members require - as noted in point 2. It's not about recruiting new cavers - it's about having genuinely novice friendly clubs. This means making sure that new members are adequately looked after. It means lending them kit, giving them sound advice on which trips are suitable for them, steering them away from idiot 'hardmen', making sure their initial caving experiences are enjoyable ones, making sure grumpy old sods at the hut don't upset them, etc etc... And it means making an effort to make them feel welcome and not an outsider in the midst of cliques.
It speaks volumes that Kay doesn't feel comfortable with the idea of joining a club..... Clubs should be for cavers at all levels not just for the hardmen.
1. That many, many people (particularly young people) are currently given an experience of caving but precious few choose to take it up.
2. That clubs need to have some follow-up program to the Try Caving event.
While I support the Try Caving weekend in principle I do not expect it to be very successful in recruiting new cavers. Based on my (considerable) experience I would estimate that only a minute number of first time cavers are sufficiently inspired to take it up seriously - maybe one in a thousand. There are already many outdoor centres, scout groups and caving instructors who routinely introduce people to caving - why not leave them to fulfill this task and concentrate on the really crucial issue? The real problem as I see it is that many clubs do not have the internal structures that new members require - as noted in point 2. It's not about recruiting new cavers - it's about having genuinely novice friendly clubs. This means making sure that new members are adequately looked after. It means lending them kit, giving them sound advice on which trips are suitable for them, steering them away from idiot 'hardmen', making sure their initial caving experiences are enjoyable ones, making sure grumpy old sods at the hut don't upset them, etc etc... And it means making an effort to make them feel welcome and not an outsider in the midst of cliques.
It speaks volumes that Kay doesn't feel comfortable with the idea of joining a club..... Clubs should be for cavers at all levels not just for the hardmen.
Peter Burgess
New member
We like to think our club is novice-friendly. We have the means to run short and easy mid-week trips, and many of our new members become regulars. It is sometimes harder to persuade them to go away for a weekend, but this year has been pretty good in this respect.
What really helps us is having a website that provides good information and an easy route to register an interest. All enquirers are then invited to meet us on one of the evening trips, which as they are rarely more than a fortnight apart, means we can meet and encourage membership quickly.
C
Chrissi
Guest
I too don't think most clubs have the correct infrastructure to introduce people to caving. A qualified leader has a greater understanding of what a beginner will be capable of and will notice things a well meaning member of a club wouldn't (such as when someone's getting to the end of the endurance limit).
Another thing that springs to mind is the state of caving clubs. Most are fairly dirty, smelly places (and that's before the pubs close). Having seen the behaviour of some senior members of a well known club when non-members were present (one person urinating on a sofa in the main room, another using a chainsaw in a crowded room after said person had had far too many beers) it's not good publicity for the sport.
Also these days we need to catch the interest of the kids before they find other things to spend their time and money on - they've far more opportunities available to them than we did 10 or 15 years ago! This requires anyone instructing or assisting with the under 16's to be checked by the criminal records bureau, have appropriate skills and insurance (parents are very fussy about which adults are allowed on school trips with their teenage darlings so the average caving club would give most of them a fit!). Are most clubs able to provide suitable facilities, accomodation, instruction and insurance to enable them to instruct young novices?
Another thing that springs to mind is the state of caving clubs. Most are fairly dirty, smelly places (and that's before the pubs close). Having seen the behaviour of some senior members of a well known club when non-members were present (one person urinating on a sofa in the main room, another using a chainsaw in a crowded room after said person had had far too many beers) it's not good publicity for the sport.
Also these days we need to catch the interest of the kids before they find other things to spend their time and money on - they've far more opportunities available to them than we did 10 or 15 years ago! This requires anyone instructing or assisting with the under 16's to be checked by the criminal records bureau, have appropriate skills and insurance (parents are very fussy about which adults are allowed on school trips with their teenage darlings so the average caving club would give most of them a fit!). Are most clubs able to provide suitable facilities, accomodation, instruction and insurance to enable them to instruct young novices?
Peter Burgess
New member
Chrissi said:
Most of our new members are not juveniles. Although it is nice to catch members young, in practice most enquirers are older (though a lot younger than me!) Also, a qualification doesn't automatically make you better than anyone else. It merely means you have proved to an examiner that you can fulfill a list of requirements for that qualification. I know that qualified mine leaders, for example, can do some daft things at times! Having an empathy with a novice and how they are coping on a trip is often just a matter of being an observant experienced caver, who understands what to look for.
Peter Burgess
New member
AndyF said:I'm not knocking the national bodies, and the good work that they do (
Wrong. If they didn't exist, you wouldn't use a "suitable caving hut", and would have fewer accommodation options. Wherever you stay, someone has to "run" it, whether it's a walkers barn, a campsite, or a hut. I would prefer to be a member of a club that has a place it can call its own. I like to think that it is a positive point that has the potential to attract new members. Perhaps cavers who are keen to keep caving activity at least at current levels, should make a list of the things they think would attract new cavers to their circle, and consider what things would put them off.
Andy Sparrow said:
.. and this, of course, is what a lot of University clubs do so well .. and precisely what the "Youth & Development Campaign" seems to be trying to make non-Uni clubs realise. Doubtless some non-Uni caving clubs do it well - judging by this forum top marks here must go to Cheddar Caving Club - but from my experience many others don't, my own club included at some points on the past.So newcomers need:
- Sensible, short trips in "nice" caves where the novices are made to feel that they're not much less good than everyone else
- A small supply to kit they can lend
- A meets list with dedicated "beginners' trips", so they don't feel they have to ask to go on a trip
- A few pointers every now and again to encourage them to go on a trip that they might think is beyond them - obviously when you know they are ready.
Can anyone add anything to this list ... please?
AndyF
New member
Peter Burgess said:AndyF said:I'm not knocking the national bodies, and the good work that they do (
Wrong. If they didn't exist, you wouldn't use a "suitable caving hut", and would have fewer accommodation options. Wherever you stay, someone has to "run" it, whether it's a walkers barn, a campsite, or a hut. I would prefer to be a member of a club that has a place it can call its own. I like to think that it is a positive point that has the potential to attract new members. Perhaps cavers who are keen to keep caving activity at least at current levels, should make a list of the things they think would attract new cavers to their circle, and consider what things would put them off.
Generally speaking IME, clubs with huts seem to find them a financial burden, as many are either fairly run down, or are under lease and all seem to have considerable expenses or hassle involded. Insurance, rates, and or rent plus repairs etc and thus need this "feed" of incoming members to finance it. They also consume time with mainatinance and repairs.
Just out of curiosity, what are your club membership fees Peter? Ours are £12.....and it ALL goes on gear, and the odd subscription.
AndyF said:Peter Burgess said:AndyF said:I'm not knocking the national bodies, and the good work that they do (
Wrong. If they didn't exist, you wouldn't use a "suitable caving hut", and would have fewer accommodation options. Wherever you stay, someone has to "run" it, whether it's a walkers barn, a campsite, or a hut. I would prefer to be a member of a club that has a place it can call its own. I like to think that it is a positive point that has the potential to attract new members. Perhaps cavers who are keen to keep caving activity at least at current levels, should make a list of the things they think would attract new cavers to their circle, and consider what things would put them off.
Generally speaking IME, clubs with huts seem to find them a financial burden, as many are either fairly run down, or are under lease and all seem to have considerable expenses or hassle involded. Insurance, rates, and or rent plus repairs etc and thus need this "feed" of incoming members to finance it. They also consume time with mainatinance and repairs.
Just out of curiosity, what are your club membership fees Peter? Ours are £12.....and it ALL goes on gear, and the odd subscription.
Cant answer for Pete, but the Mendip CG figures are as follows:
Basic sub 15.00
Cottage "sinking fund" 5.00
Cottage running cost 10.00
Total 30.00
Basic Annual subs of £15.00 includes a monthly newsletter so our £15.00 is comparable to your £12.00?
Members pay £5.00 (the pice of 2 pints of beer?) into a "sinking fund" for the cottage. This generates approx £500 per annum which is invested. The purpose of the sinking fund is to finance major projects in the future.
The net annual cost of running the hut is £10.00 per member per year.
The more active members use the cottage at least 1 weekend per month = 24 bednights. But members get a £1 per night discount on hut fees, so a member using the hut for 24 nights per year would save £24 compared to a guest.
In my experience, the MCG hut: is not a financial burden, is not fairly run down, is not under lease and does not have considerable expenses or hassle involded. Insurance, rates, do have to be paid but are not unduly expensive. Admittedly, maintenance and repairs are an issue and on this point only I would agree with AndyF.
