Try Caving

[Bob Mehew]

Professionals need to do their own advertising, at their own expense, just like any other business. It is not the job of a volunteer event to organise or pay for advertising to promote their businesses for them.

and did not Chris say

Wait - I have a better idea - why don't we list CIC's on the site who are prepared to help out for free with the up coming "try caving" weekend?

I think you are wrong Andy in suggesting CLUB cavers into clubs, what we are after is cavers into clubs, via what ever route.  The general presumption these days is that a fair proportion of cavers join because of the experience they had when lead by a LCMLA or CIC on a school outdoor activity session.  To me, Chris's idea is great, if a professional (whether they are CIC or LCMLA as they are both considered competent to take novices into a range of caves) is prepared to give up a day and put on an event, then why not give him or her some publicity.  The more people who are attracted to go underground by these events, the more that may stick around and join clubs. 

 

[SamT]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again here. I can never work out why people are hell bent on attracting as many people underground as possibe.

The stock standard answer seems to be... "its good for the sport".

Unless you want to make a living out of the sport (or hobby for the pedants) I cant see how this is so.

I heard it in climbing bandied about as the foundary opened and climbing competitions began to evolve, climbing started to creep into the press, on the TV adverts etc. It was always the people chasing sponsor ship "its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport".."its good for the sport"

Yeah.. well if you can count trashed crags, overcrowding, more litter, parking nightmares as "good for the sport" then count me out. Thats exactly why I turned to caving.. to get away from all that.... fri66in punters.

(I know you can seek out quiet spots in the background. but its always the popular venues that get hit by sudden increases in popularity. e.g. stanage for climbing, giants for caving.)

So go on - why are we hell bent on getting more people caving exactly, and why are newspaper articles/tv snippits "good for the sport"

 

[racingsnake]

I wasn't going to get involved in this waste of a debate but well said Sam T
I second every word.

 

[Chris J]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again here. I can never work out why people are hell bent on attracting as many people underground as possibe.

The stock standard answer seems to be... "its good for the sport".

Unless you want to make a living out of the sport (or hobby for the pedants) I cant see how this is so.

I heard it in climbing bandied about as the foundary opened and climbing competitions began to evolve, climbing started to creep into the press, on the TV adverts etc. It was always the people chasing sponsor ship "its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport"..."its good for the sport".."its good for the sport"

Yeah.. well if you can count trashed crags, overcrowding, more litter, parking nightmares as "good for the sport" then count me out. Thats exactly why I turned to caving.. to get away from all that.... fri66in punters.

(I know you can seek out quiet spots in the background. but its always the popular venues that get hit by sudden increases in popularity. e.g. stanage for climbing, giants for caving.)

So go on - why are we hell bent on getting more people caving exactly, and why are newspaper articles/tv snippits "good for the sport"

Quite right - I don't want to see trashed or overcrowded caves!!

What I want to do is build caving back up to the level at which it used to be - a healty number of cavers is what we need.

If you think we already have a healthy number of cavers just speak to any club who has an ageing and declining membership or any of the shops which tell me they are constantly in the red!

If we don't do something about it now in twenty years time who is going to maintain the fixed aids, bolts access requirements, provide accomodation and negotiate for insurance for us all? Where will we get our kit from? who will write guide books? etc...

We need a basic number of cavers to maintain the sort of caving we are used to at the moment.

You might not care if you won't be caving in 20 years - but I will be and I don't want to be the last of a dying breed!

 

[Stu]

Sam, to be fair, your's and my perspectives are very Peak-centric. This incurs a bias towards the overcrowded/trashed aguement. Most other places don't suffer the "Sheffield - centre of the Universe" phenomenon. That said, one would hope any introduction would place conservation as a high priority.

 

[SamT]

Quite right - I don't want to see trashed or overcrowded caves!!

What I want to do is build caving back up to the level at which it used to be - a healty number of cavers is what we need.

If you think we already have a healthy number of cavers just speak to any club who has an ageing and declining membership or any of the shops which tell me they are constantly in the red!

If we don't do something about it now in twenty years time who is going to maintain the fixed aids, bolts access requirements, provide accomodation and negotiate for insurance for us all? Where will we get our kit from? who will write guide books? etc...

We need a basic number of cavers to maintain the sort of caving we are used to at the moment.

You might not care if you won't be caving in 20 years - but I will be and I don't want to be the last of a dying breed!

This one gets wheeled out all the time too.

I reckon there are plenty of cavers out there. In my opinion.. The classic caving venues seem quieter due to the increased no. of venues including those abroad. Cavers are just spread more thinly over an area rather than concentrated on just a few caves.

Yes - club no's are declining but that is because people dont feel the need to join clubs. It only takes a couple of mates to start going out together, why would they then join a club.

You might not care if you won't be caving in 20 years - but I will be and I don't want to be the last of a dying breed!

Chris- thats just a rediculous statement. Whats going to stop me or you caving in twenty years time? the fact that nobody else is about. I dont get it.

 

[AndyF]

What I want to do is build caving back up to the level at which it used to be - a healty number of cavers is what we need.

If you think we already have a healthy number of cavers just speak to any club who has an ageing and declining membership or any of the shops which tell me they are constantly in the red!

If we don't do something about it now in twenty years time who is going to maintain the fixed aids, bolts access requirements, provide accomodation and negotiate for insurance for us all? Where will we get our kit from? who will write guide books? etc...

We need a basic number of cavers to maintain the sort of caving we are used to at the moment.

gotta agree with Sam's views here.

The point about mainting fixed aids is red herring. If there are no cavers left, then there is no purpose or need to maintain the fixed aids.
Provide accomodation - well every caving area has dozens of bunk houses for walkers, climbers etc. so no problem there.
Insurance - just take out your own. Why do you need someone else to do it? Most winter sports insurance covers caving etc.?
And any shop genuinely in the "red" would be sold up and converted to a tea shop by now, so thats not valid either.

Caving infrastructure should exist to supply the needs of the number of cavers there are, not have a struggle to recruit sufficient cavers to support the in situ infrastructure. That is topsy-turvey thinking.

Our club, like many, has shrunk from a peak, but we don't have commitees, tackle stores, huts, minibuses etc. to maintain so it has not been a problem. We just get in cars and go caving.....I can't see that will ever change.

Areas like Mendips/Yorks where there are a number of huts may have to consolidate. The "club hut" mentality stems from the 1960's when transport was more difficult, fewer peole had cars, and people were generally worse off, but really it's outdated now.

......nope.......just can't see this "healthy number" imperative. A healthy minimum number is two, me and one other caver so I can go with someone.... 

 

[Stu]

Sam, you're exactly right about mates going caving. It's how I started, but I soon hit a bit of a brick wall when it came to access of certain caves especially in the Dales (but you don't want to get me started on that... you wouldn't like me when I get started on that!!!). Without the club contacts I wouldn't know who the hell to call for say, a trip down Titan - these things are veiled in a certain amount of secrecy and for very good reason.

You're a bit of a digger! I wager your source of willing beatches (!!!) come from within club circles?

Having come from the outside to the inside that is the club scene, I have to say that my involvement at all levels increased once I'd joined a club. This worked both for my benefit and the clubs. Surely this is reason enough.

 

[Hughie]

As I said before (on the other thread about this) "Am I the only one who thinks this is a naff idea?" Apparently not.

The two clubs I belong to have done either absolutely nothing or very very little about this. Have to say membership numbers of either doesn't seem to be an issue.

I think, if people are keen enough, they'll find their own way into caving, without being guided in (and no doubt "guided" around every cave they subsequently visit).

Keep the plebs out, I say.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Not in the immediate future, but perhaps not that far away, will come the time when transport to get away will become more of an issue. I am referring to road charging. If you live and cave in the same area, this may not be so important, but clubs such as mine, remote from caving areas are likely to have to change their way of thinking. We are likely to revert to a club transport policy not unlike that of the 60s. Weekends away will be too expensive to use private cars. One way that would keep costs down will be to hire a minibus for the weekend. This will probably keep the sport affordable for some years I hope! Either hire a bus, or buy one. This will be a radical departure for any club in this situation, and one that can only work in the club environment, where a group of 10 or so members can pool resources to arrange the weekend. It will also mean that the weekend activities will have to be properly arranged, so that cavers all travel to the caves as a unit, to the pub as a unit, and so on.

I suspect future restrictions on transport will either make or break clubs. Those that survive the lean times are more likely to make it.

Anyone who thinks cheap travel to caves is going to continue indefinitely is living in cave cuckoo land.

This alone is a sound enough reason to encourage a few more youngsters to take up the sport in a club environment.

 

[SamT]

Im not against clubs by any means - dont get me wrong. Stu's right, my cave slaves are mainly gleaned from the club environment. No doubting that since joining a club - I have access to more like minded people and hence more cave info.

I just dont subscribe to all this public canvassing. "Try Caving" weekends etc.

I like the way its always been - and thats if anyone who knows me shows and interest, and I think they are up to it (on various levels) then we'll go out, hopefully - they'll enjoy it, and will hopefully end up joining ours - or another club.

That way - it distills all the punters out.

People can still just join a club if they fancy a go and dont know anybody.

I think things like school trips, scouts and uni caving groups are massivly important. I think all teenagers should be exposed to all sorts of ranges of sports/pastimes. That way - folk and discover if they have an interest/aptitude early on and dedicate their efforts in persuing it from an early age.

Without the club contacts I wouldn't know who the hell to call for say, a trip down Titan - these things are veiled in a certain amount of secrecy and for very good reason.

T'interweb stu - tis the future of all comuniction. You'd just ask on here wouldn't you.

 

[graham]

Without the club contacts I wouldn't know who the hell to call for say, a trip down Titan - these things are veiled in a certain amount of secrecy and for very good reason.

T'interweb stu - tis the future of all comuniction. You'd just ask on here wouldn't you.

Sorry, but I am willing to bet that trips down places like titan and indeed UFS are not the sort of thing that can be sorted just by looking 'em up on the world wide interweb. As stu said there are very good reasons why these things are kept sort of elitist.

 

[SamT]

So just being a member of a club doesnt give you those contacts.

Its who you know - not what you know.

However - I bet if I posted up, "does anyone know who I contact about organising a trip to UFS - PM me with details" I would get some sort of response - even if it was a negative one.

 

[Peter Burgess]

To organise a visit into UFS:

1) Buy a time machine.
2) Travel back 12 months.
3) Join the M.C.G.
4) Get involved with the active diggers.

Otherwise, join the queue like everyone else!!!

 

[SamT]

Q.E.D.

 

[Peter Burgess]

OR

1) Buy a time machine
2) go back 40 years
3) start the dig yourself with your mates
4) discover the cave
5) make everyone else join the queue instead.

 

[martinr]

To organise a visit into UFS:

1) Buy a time machine.
2) Travel back 12 months.
3) Join the M.C.G.
4) Get involved with the active diggers.

Otherwise, join the queue like everyone else!!!

1 and 2 not required. Simply 3 and 4.

martinr
MCG Treasurer

 

[graham]

To organise a visit into UFS:

1) Buy a time machine.
2) Travel back 12 months.
3) Join the M.C.G.
4) Get involved with the active diggers.

Otherwise, join the queue like everyone else!!!

1 and 2 not required. Simply 3 and 4.

martinr
MCG Treasurer

 

[SamT]

there you go - by the power of the internet - I know know how to go about getting a trip into UFS.

No club contacts needed.

Cant see me being down mendip soon anyhow.

 

[Stu]

there you go - by the power of the internet - I know know how to go about getting a trip into UFS.

No club contacts needed.

Cant see me being down mendip soon anyhow.

Think you missed the vital part 3 bit Sam... now cough up!!!  :tease: