Video: rigging

[MJenkinson]

In all seriousness, I'm very interested in what aspect of a Stop (used by a someone properly trained) trashed your rope? Our treasurer would be very interested if we can extend the life of our ropes!


I do sometimes think that SRT is talked about like a dark art; its sliding up and down rope. Don't let go when descending unless locked off, make sure you are clipped in at rebelays before undoing stuff. It's not rocket science. Abseiling is abseiling, try not to bounce the rope and be jerky and don't go too fast and glaze the rope. Go as slow as you need to be comfortable.

Here endeth the SRT gospel according to me - someone with only 3 yrs experience, no formal qualifications and zip diddly experience of really teaching people! I am sure I will learn in time.

 

[mch]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

 

[cap n chris]

In all seriousness, I'm very interested in what aspect of a Stop (used by a someone properly trained) trashed your rope? Our treasurer would be very interested if we can extend the life of our ropes!

If rigging on spits the braking carabiner is clipped into the Simple carabiner, rather than into the central maillon; this avoids damage to the descender in the event of a rebelay failure with an a caver on rope below it shockloading the rig. A Raumer Handy is specifically designed to counter this.

So, to avoid that you clip your braking carabiner into the Simple carabiner (or Stop carabiner).

See 3m35s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIooXVvn6A

OK, but there is a problem with this; the rope entering the braking carabiner runs in opposition and rubs against the rope exiting the bottom spool on the descender; this counter-rubbing glazes a black line down the rope and is an argument against this particular setup, and a supporting argument for using a Raumer Handy instead.

It is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed.

 

[cap n chris]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

Cue.... multi-page tangential rerun of numerous previous threads  re: Stop/Simple/Rack/other .....

 

[Bottlebank]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

Cue.... multi-page tangential rerun of numerous previous threads  re: Stop/Simple/Rack/other .....

May as well have it anyway, after all not everyone will have seen them? Besides there's only so many gear related issues cavers can talk about.

Personally I've no problem with people using a rack, Simple or Stop but agree with Les that you need to be careful with beginners using Stops. Personally I prefer the Stop because as Les says it has a multitude of uses, rigging, lifelining, rescue etc.

And again personally I don't consider a rope trashed because of a section of glazing, and so far as I know this can happen with more or less any abseil device - no doubt someone will educate me on that though.

 

[Leclused]

In all seriousness, I'm very interested in what aspect of a Stop (used by a someone properly trained) trashed your rope? Our treasurer would be very interested if we can extend the life of our ropes!

Common damage with stops is burning the rope because not fully pressing on the death-mans handle. Especially on long drops your hand can get loose on the handle causing too much friction on the rope ==> burning it.

We had it a few years ago during the expedtion, a 60m rope trashed over a lenght of 20m towards the end of the drop.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed.

You can't possibly be serious.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

Racks definitely have their place but in my opinion not for general use in the UK. It is not without good reason that Petzl started making racks after not doing so for a long time.

 

[Bottlebank]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

Racks definitely have their place but in my opinion not for general use in the UK.

Go on, you've got me. OK the simple is smaller than a rack, but other than that why? I caved here on a rack years ago for quite a long time, oddly they work just as well here as anywhere else?

 

[bograt]

People tend to overlook the humble fig8, in my mind the best training descender for single drop undeviated pitches less than say 50ft, once its on a novice it is very difficult to be fiddled with, the rate of descent can be controlled by a trainer off rope, gives the trainee confidence on the rope without having to think about 'complicated' techniques, ideal for beginners or one offs!.
Used them for training for a couple of decades.

 

[mch]

People tend to overlook the humble fig8, in my mind the best training descender for single drop undeviated pitches less than say 50ft, once its on a novice it is very difficult to be fiddled with, the rate of descent can be controlled by a trainer off rope, gives the trainee confidence on the rope without having to think about 'complicated' techniques, ideal for beginners or one offs!.

I would agree with all those points vis-?-vis the fig 8, and like a lot of cavers of my generation I did my first abseils on one decades ago. Then one day at the top of Geology Pot in Giants I was delegated to lifeline duty using a fig 8; after the first caver had reached the bottom of the ladder and untied the rope I was astonished to find that it changed into a twisted heap which was a pain to unravel. This was repeated on each descent. I figured that twisting the rope up in this way couldn't be doing it much good (that may be an assumption on my part of course and perhaps a rope expert could comment) so I have not used a fig 8 since.

 

[Bottlebank]

People tend to overlook the humble fig8, in my mind the best training descender for single drop undeviated pitches less than say 50ft, once its on a novice it is very difficult to be fiddled with, the rate of descent can be controlled by a trainer off rope, gives the trainee confidence on the rope without having to think about 'complicated' techniques, ideal for beginners or one offs!.

I would agree with all those points vis-?-vis the fig 8, and like a lot of cavers of my generation I did my first abseils on one decades ago. Then one day at the top of Geology Pot in Giants I was delegated to lifeline duty using a fig 8; after the first caver had reached the bottom of the ladder and untied the rope I was astonished to find that it changed into a twisted heap which was a pain to unravel. This was repeated on each descent. I figured that twisting the rope up in this way couldn't be doing it much good (that may be an assumption on my part of course and perhaps a rope expert could comment) so I have not used a fig 8 since.

Not claiming to be an expert, but yes, figure 8's twist the rope, particularly a problem on pull through trips.

 

[Simon Wilson]

People tend to overlook the humble fig8, in my mind the best training descender for single drop undeviated pitches less than say 50ft, once its on a novice it is very difficult to be fiddled with, the rate of descent can be controlled by a trainer off rope, gives the trainee confidence on the rope without having to think about 'complicated' techniques, ideal for beginners or one offs!.
Used them for training for a couple of decades.

Interesting. What type of wood do you recommend for ladder rungs? Some people prefer elm while others say ash is best.

 

[cavemanmike]

i quite like using an i.d when i'm rigging(just let go and rig)" simplesss "

 

[cap n chris]

It is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed.

You can't possibly be serious.

It most definitely is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed. Some people might consider the rope to be well worn, or simply noted as being glazed. If the rope can still be used then many people might consider that binning it is an overreaction.

 

[graham]

Interesting. What type of wood do you recommend for ladder rungs? Some people prefer elm while others say ash is best.

Ash, definitely ash, as anyone with a copy of The Manual of Caving Techniques on their bookshelf, will tell you.

 

[cap n chris]

Whilst we are engaging in the Stop v Simple debate can I throw in the third option, ie a rack? It is an easy and safe piece of kit to use, it provides a smooth descent and the rate of descent is infinitely adjustable. What's not to like?

Rack - uses: descender, problematic for mid rope rescue.

Simple - uses: descender, can also take the place of a pulley in some scenarios, works as a spanner for central maillon, suitable for mid rope rescue.

Stop - uses: descender, can also take the place of a pulley in some scenarios, works as a spanner for central maillon, suitable for mid rope rescue, suitable for Z-rigs, suitable for tyroleans/zip lines, suitable as a replacement for broken/missing ascender.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed.

You can't possibly be serious.

It most definitely is a personal interpretation whether a glazed line on the rope = being trashed. Some people might consider the rope to be well worn, or simply noted as being glazed. If the rope can still be used then many people might consider that binning it is an overreaction.

I used the rope for a while but as soon as somebody complained about slipping on the glazed section I chopped the worst part out and threw it away. I put it in the trash can with the rest of the trash - it was trashed (IMO).

I think it's significant that the person most strongly advocating the use of Stops thinks that glazing of rope is not a problem. If you come caving with me bring your own rope.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Interesting. What type of wood do you recommend for ladder rungs? Some people prefer elm while others say ash is best.

Ash, definitely ash, as anyone with a copy of The Manual of Caving Techniques on their bookshelf, will tell you.

Graham, I really don't want to get into an argument about this. Let's agree to differ and say that it might be another example of the North South divide. For the Dales it has to be elm. The reason is wet caves and the better durability. With elm rungs when I creosote my ladders I only creosote the rope and not the rungs. You still get covered in creosote when freshly done but the rungs are not slippery.

 

[cap n chris]

I think it's significant that the person most strongly advocating the use of Stops thinks that glazing of rope is not a problem.

I didn't say that. I said that glazing is not uniformly going to be considered to be the same as trashing. Obviously it is a problem.

Furthermore I am not the person most strongly advocating the use of Stops.

I have my own rope: some of it is worn, none of it is trashed.