Video: rigging

[Fulk]

Inferus

As for other replies; I'm somewhat taken aback that people have actually hung from deviations.

So am I . . . after all, there's quite a difference between a rope tied off into a karabiner and a rope running loosely through a karabiner.

 

[cap n chris]

From an experienced perspective, yes: however, from a poorly trained newcomer's viewpoint it could be something along the lines of  "abseil until you can clip in, and then something needs to be done, hopefully I'll remember what I'm supposed to do when I get there".

 

[nearlywhite]

As for other replies; I'm somewhat taken aback that people have actually hung from deviations. That is worrying. Have these people been self-taught, taught by someone winging it or something else? It would be interesting to know where these bad (dangerous) habits appeared from.

Basing this from anecdotes I would not be surprised if 20-30% of all cavers have done this either while training (and relatively safe) or whilst caving. All the instances I know of have been taught, some by those with qualifications. It doesn't seem to be in the first few trips but that could be because we avoid trips with deviations when taking people out for the first/second time.

I suspect this is a de novo bad habit and crops up when people get a bit over confident in their ability and stop thinking. I now try to get people to work out how to pass a deviation and explain it to me after they know the absolute basics. Also training people on Simples rather than Stops terrifies them into paying 100% attention (I've not seen anyone trained using Simples clip into deviations yet). Apologies for all the anecdotal assertions!

 

[Simon Wilson]

As for other replies; I'm somewhat taken aback that people have actually hung from deviations. That is worrying. Have these people been self-taught, taught by someone winging it or something else? It would be interesting to know where these bad (dangerous) habits appeared from.

...... training people on Simples rather than Stops ....

That is an important point. Stop descenders are a curse and should be banished from caving.

 

[Fulk]

Funny, that; I've used a Stop for donkey's years, on thin ropes, thick ropes, wet ropes, dry ropes, on long pitches and short pitches, and if anyone tried to ban me from using it I'd be so pissed off.

 

[Pie Muncher]

Must admit though this thread has prompted me to chuck a few bolts in to tidy up the rigging on our current dig this weekend  :ang:

Well did you? And how did it go?

 

[cap n chris]

That is an important point. Stop descenders are a curse and should be banished from caving.

I totally 100% disagree.

 

[cap n chris]

Er,.... this thread exists twice and is replicated (if I post here, it appears there, and presumably vice versa and the other way round). It is in UK Caving and also in Yorkshire.

 

[Les W]

That is an important point. Stop descenders are a curse and should be banished from caving.

I totally 100% disagree.

Me too. A stop is a very versatile piece of equipment with lots of different uses. What it is not, is a fail safe abseil device, and it is definitely not a piece of equipment for a beginner...

 

[MJenkinson]

Me too. A stop is a very versatile piece of equipment with lots of different uses. What it is not, is a fail safe abseil device, and it is definitely not a piece of equipment for a beginner...

Rhubarb. I got taught to use a stop from day one. Used one on my very first caving trip. What do you mean not for beginners?

And as for never clipping a deviation (note - not directed at the person quoted above), you are all telling me that you have never clipped a deviation bolt / tat whilst de-rigging / rigging to hold you in place? I don't think you should hang of them (there is no need) but to state "never clip into a deviation" doesn't seem right either.

 

[Inferus]

Me too. A stop is a very versatile piece of equipment with lots of different uses. What it is not, is a fail safe abseil device, and it is definitely not a piece of equipment for a beginner...

Rhubarb. I got taught to use a stop from day one. Used one on my very first caving trip. What do you mean not for beginners?

Indeed. First time on rope for me was with a Stop.

It's a perfectly fine abseil device as long as people are taught to abseil properly in the first place..

 

[Les W]

Me too. A stop is a very versatile piece of equipment with lots of different uses. What it is not, is a fail safe abseil device, and it is definitely not a piece of equipment for a beginner...

Rhubarb. I got taught to use a stop from day one. Used one on my very first caving trip. What do you mean not for beginners?

Indeed. First time on rope for me was with a Stop.

It's a perfectly fine abseil device as long as people are taught to abseil properly in the first place..

What I meant was that it is not a tool with which to teach a beginner to abseil. It is a very versatile tool but beginners become dependent on the autolock function when they should learn how to abseil correctly before getting near a Stop.

 

[damian]

LesW and Infernus - I think you both agree with each other really (and so do I FWIW).

And as for never clipping a deviation (note - not directed at the person quoted above), you are all telling me that you have never clipped a deviation bolt / tat whilst de-rigging / rigging to hold you in place?

I don't think I have ... but I wouldn't have a problem doing so as all that would happen if it failed is that I'd swing away ... and in any case if I'm rigging from it, I ought to be content for it to fail in use without hideous consequences. The problem is surely when people end up clipping into them while they move jammers or their descender.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Two points.

I had a 150m rope totally trashed by someone using a Stop.

Many people start SRT using a Stop and never get to appreciate the advantages of a Simple.

 

[cap n chris]

If the person using the Stop had been trained in its use would your rope have been less trashed or was there something mechanically deficient with the device?

Many people start SRT using a Simple and fail to benefit from the life-saving advantages of a Stop.

 

[Simon Wilson]

If the person using the Stop had been trained in its use would your rope have been less trashed or was there something mechanically deficient with the device?

I doubt it and no.

Many people start SRT using a Simple and fail to benefit from the life-saving advantages of a Stop.

I think few British cavers have ever used a Simple unlike continental cavers who I think are more enlightened.

 

[cap n chris]

4 UK cavers with whom I regularly cave use Simples. I used to have one too but reverted to a Stop for uniformity of rig when teaching newcomers. I like the death-avoidance feature it provides.

 

[Simon Wilson]

4 UK cavers with whom I regularly cave use Simples. I used to have one too but reverted to a Stop for uniformity of rig when teaching newcomers. I like the death-avoidance feature it provides.

Do you advocate teaching newcomers with Stops?

 

[cap n chris]

I advocate teaching people how to use equipment which they are likely to use. Is this not a sensible approach?

 

[Simon Wilson]

I advocate teaching people how to use equipment which they are likely to use. Is this not a sensible approach?

You will do what you think is sensible. I encourage people to use a Simple but never with any success because they have almost invariably learnt using a Stop. Cavers teaching other cavers to use Stops partly explains why Simples aren't used very much in this country.