Video: rigging

[bograt]

The reason is because if they forget to unclip before moving on in either direction they will get hung up.

Surely beginners should be taught to check all connections before continuing? when depending on a rope and a bit of technology, basics are paramount, 'forgetting' to unclip is a symptom of bad training.

 

[Leclused]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

Not really, you'll always swing when above it so it doesn't make much difference. Watching someone treating a bit of tat as a rebelay by mistake is far more worrying.

I must say good point here, I admit. But when descending it still makes some sense, no?

Not really, all it does is complicate the job and encourage bad habits.

If you descend just below it and lock off properly you have two hands free to grab the deviation and krab, pull yourself across and reclip in one movement.

At the end of the day whatever works but my instinct is always to say don't clip it.

I've just took a look at the basic course guide from the WSV (Belgium). This is how it is teached here in Belgium:
Descending
- descend until the point where you can pull yourself easily towards the deviation
- lock off
- place you short lifeline behind the crab in the loop of the deviation (not in the crab)
- replace the crab of the deviation above you
- unclip your short lifeline
- unlock
- descend further

Ascending:
- climb up to the deviation
- place your short lifeline in the loop of the deviation (not in the crab)
- unclip the rope
- clip in the rope under your "Croll"
- by pulling on the rope under you you can easily unclip your lifeline
- you can control your swing with the rope that is in your hand
- climb further up

So there is a significant difference between uk style and Belgian style.

 

[Mark Wright]

From an industrial rope access standpoint clipping the rope loops at rebelays is frowned upon. We use a variety of knots that are applicable to the situation based on the loading of the knot. Clipping the loops of a knot that is primarily designed for a straight load would abnormally load the knot. Whilst some might not consider this to be a problem it makes the teaching of the techniques a little confusing when we say one thing and then do another. Rope access technicians are taught always to clip into the bolt or attached connector when passing such obstructions.

French cavers regularly use a double bowline on the bight knot for pitch heads and rebelays and often clip a carabiner between the two loops thus providing an easy attachment point when passing the rebelay. 

The problem with teaching people to clip a deviation is that it is foreseeable they will inadvertantly rely on the deviation as an attachment point. We teach rope access technicians to use two carabiners on a deviation. The first carabiner holds the rope away from the vertical and when the technician arrives at the obstacle on the way down the rope above the descender is clipped into the second carabiner prior to the removal of the original carabiner, thus ensuring the deviation sling is not lost and eliminating the need to clip the deviation with a cow's tail. On the way up the second carabiner is clipped into the rope below the chest ascender before removing the other one.

Mark

 

[Leclused]

French cavers regularly use a double bowline on the bight knot for pitch heads and rebelays and often clip a carabiner between the two loops thus providing an easy attachment point when passing the rebelay. 

The problem with teaching people to clip a deviation is that it is foreseeable they will inadvertantly rely on the deviation as an attachment point. We teach rope access technicians to use two carabiners on a deviation. The first carabiner holds the rope away from the vertical and when the technician arrives at the obstacle on the way down the rope above the descender is clipped into the second carabiner prior to the removal of the original carabiner, thus ensuring the deviation sling is not lost and eliminating the need to clip the deviation with a cow's tail. On the way up the second carabiner is clipped into the rope below the chest ascender before removing the other one.

Mark

I think I'm going to start using this method for deviations too when doing rigging for beginners

In steps
- Descends until you can easily access the deviation
- lock off
- clip in the rope above you in the free carabiner
- unclip the rope from the other carabiner
- unlock
- descend further

 

[bograt]

Yup! I can see that Mark  , deviations should have a double crab, makes life a lot easier, anyone care to comment on the difference between a deviation and a rebelay??----

 

[bograt]

French cavers regularly use a double bowline on the bight knot for pitch heads and rebelays and often clip a carabiner between the two loops thus providing an easy attachment point when passing the rebelay. 

The problem with teaching people to clip a deviation is that it is foreseeable they will inadvertantly rely on the deviation as an attachment point. We teach rope access technicians to use two carabiners on a deviation. The first carabiner holds the rope away from the vertical and when the technician arrives at the obstacle on the way down the rope above the descender is clipped into the second carabiner prior to the removal of the original carabiner, thus ensuring the deviation sling is not lost and eliminating the need to clip the deviation with a cow's tail. On the way up the second carabiner is clipped into the rope below the chest ascender before removing the other one.

Mark

I think I'm going to start using this method for deviations too when doing rigging for beginners

In steps
- Descends until you can easily access the deviation
- lock off
- clip in the rope above you in the free carabiner
- unclip the rope from the other carabiner
- unlock
- descend further

You forgot to clip on the lower carabiner after passing it. 

 

[Bottlebank]

Yup! I can see that Mark  , deviations should have a double crab, makes life a lot easier, anyone care to comment on the difference between a deviation and a rebelay??----

I think I'd make the point that anyone reading this that doesn't understand the difference and is thinking of doing a bit of SRT should perhaps get some training first.

There will always be differences in style, I was talking strictly about deviations NOT rebelays.

 

[Bottlebank]

Yup! I can see that Mark  , deviations should have a double crab, makes life a lot easier, anyone care to comment on the difference between a deviation and a rebelay??----

Why not. A deviation does not need to be weight bearing, if you hang on it it may fail.

 

[bograt]

Surely deviations bear a lateral load ?? up or down

 

[Bottlebank]

Surely deviations bear a lateral load ?? up or down

A bit.

Weight bearing as in capable of bearing the weight/load of a caver abseiling/prussiking.

We've used tackle bags, bits of polyprop, old slings, bailing twine, belay belts, dodgy spits, hire cars, stal, holes in thin flakes and generally any old tat over the years for deviations - even a caver on a ledge. Clip them if you want, I give up 

 

[bograt]

Surely deviations bear a lateral load ?? up or down

A bit.

Weight bearing as in capable of bearing the weight/load of a caver abseiling/prussiking.

We've used tackle bags, bits of polyprop, old slings, bailing twine, belay belts, dodgy spits, hire cars, stal, holes in thin flakes and generally any old tat over the years for deviations - even a caver on a ledge. Clip them if you want, I give up 

Hire cars ?????? :-\ :-\

 

[Bottlebank]

Surely deviations bear a lateral load ?? up or down

A bit.

Weight bearing as in capable of bearing the weight/load of a caver abseiling/prussiking.

We've used tackle bags, bits of polyprop, old slings, bailing twine, belay belts, dodgy spits, hire cars, stal, holes in thin flakes and generally any old tat over the years for deviations - even a caver on a ledge. Clip them if you want, I give up 

Hire cars ?????? :-\ :-\

Sorry, hire car. Think high belay on tree, car on opposite site of hole. In fairness you'd have been safe enough clipped to the car.

 

[bograt]

Sounds like my kind of expedition.   OFF TOPIC------

 

[Bottlebank]

Must admit though this thread has prompted me to chuck a few bolts in to tidy up the rigging on our current dig this weekend  :ang:

Fairly sure the backup bolt (I know) on the pitch is probably in calcite.

 

[Inferus]

I rarely clip in to deviations (krab or loop, usually krab for me), the only ones I do are the really awkward ones. The vast majority have no need to be clipped in to IMHO. I guess it's horses for courses, no right or wrong about it.

And I agree, deviations are not truly weight bearing, going on some of the tat I've used or seen used over the years, I wouldn't hang a picture from it!

 

[topcat]

And I agree, deviations are not truly weight bearing, going on some of the tat I've used or seen used over the years, I wouldn't hang a picture from it!

This is true, in that 'we' often use existing tat for deviations.  However, it is worth remembering that a deviation is there for a reason and should one fail there could be issues.  I have cut out old deviations and replaced them with new tat a few times.  You should be able to hang more than a picture off your deviation!

 

[nearlywhite]

There was an issue in a club I'm involved with - 2 inexperienced people within the space of a month treated a deviation as a rebelay. One of which was life threatening. SRT training was revised, as were GPGs to ensure that it never happened again.

Roll forward a year and surprise surprise it happens again. This time on a weight bearing deviation so the heart didn't leap right out of the mouth but immensely annoying to see it still happening. I go to another club, talk to older experienced cavers - it seems to be a pervasive issue. If you think it's not happening, it's probably because you're not looking.

So tell them never to clip into deviation

 

[cap n chris]

So tell them never to clip into deviation

Thanks for reinforcing my earlier suggestion!

The prospect of treating a deviation as a rebelay and being clipped into a non-load-bearing tat belay after fumbling and letting go of the main rope and ending up hanging by a shoelace metres away from the pitch (this has happened, btw) is alarming beyond measure.

The good news is that after having started this thread in a bit of a ranty way I've since delivered (unexpectedly!) four separate rigging tuition sessions, hopefully getting a few tips and pointers and some useful underpinning knowledge passed on to some keenies! Anyone else in the wings looking to raise their game?

 

[Inferus]

And I agree, deviations are not truly weight bearing, going on some of the tat I've used or seen used over the years, I wouldn't hang a picture from it!

This is true, in that 'we' often use existing tat for deviations.  However, it is worth remembering that a deviation is there for a reason and should one fail there could be issues.  I have cut out old deviations and replaced them with new tat a few times.  You should be able to hang more than a picture off your deviation!

Absolutely, if a deviation failed it could have serious consequences, so should be able to bear a reasonable weight! The 'hang a picture' comment was intended as tongue-in-cheek..

As for other replies; I'm somewhat taken aback that people have actually hung from deviations. That is worrying. Have these people been self-taught, taught by someone winging it or something else? It would be interesting to know where these bad (dangerous) habits appeared from.

 

[cap n chris]

I asked a Mountain Leader in the Dachstien if he had seen or used one and yes he had tried one out in summer & winter conditions and found it 'fiddly'.  He also thought that it was a bit of a liability as he was concerned that if some ice or grit got in the outer gate hinge stopping it from closing, then it would fail/come off very easily.

Is anyone else using them? What do you think?

Coincidentally the concern about a failure mode caused by grit/gravel trapped between the gates had also occurred to me and to my shame I have not yet got around to testing this out to see what happens; I shall make a point of doing so soon and will report back.

Had a play, trying to create this perceived issue and it doesn't appear to be something that can occur with a nasty surprise awaiting the unwitting. When time allows I'll film it since it's a bit too complex to explain in writing.