VIP caving trip to GG - press release

[JasonC]

The VIP trip was organised by me, in my role as BCA CRoW Liaison Officer....

Well, I think that's a bloody fantastic job of liaising.  What a coup, to get two senior MPs down GG without the winch!
A gesture like this will achieve more than any amount of letter-writing, debates and argument.

Yes, conservation mustn't be forgotten, and maybe access needs managing but if the principle of a right to access is established, then that's got to be a good thing (IMHO, obviously)

 

[droid]

Strikes me that 90% of comment on CRoW is 'opinion. And not always particularly honest....

 

[David Rose]

I wrote the press release. I must say, it hasn't taken long for this thread to degenerate into the usual carping one hears on this issue - from the same few posters who always do it. Tedious really. I suppose they must see it as a bad thing that two MPs, both of them members of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Mountaineering, had a great day caving, spoke enthusiastically about it, and supported a policy endorsed by a BCA referendum. Maybe instead of going to all this trouble we should have just sat at our computers and traded stupid arguments, as some prefer to do.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Maybe David, it's no bad thing for the people that matter to understand that there isn't unanimity on this. It's called BALANCE. That said, it is a good piece of journalism, and I am sure they had a great time, and learnt a great deal. Nobody disagrees with that. It isn't the first time this sort of event has been organised, and they always create a good impression with those who participate. The earliest example I am aware of was after a New Year rescue in the early 1980s when a few MPs were up in arms over the costs and so on. A quick trip into a cave with the CRO (probably) and it was all sweetness and light.

 

[droid]

it is a good piece of journalism,

It is.

But very little 'journalism' that I've read is totally impartial: it is written, as I see it, for a target readership. This piece, though well written, is no different.

It's also a favourite tactic of journalists to put in sniping and exaggerated negative references to people that have the temerity to disagree.

 

[Brains]

It's also a favourite tactic of journalists to put in sniping and exaggerated negative references to people that have the temerity to disagree.

Sadly not only professional pen pushers, nor just those on one side of an argument

 

[droid]

Don't know about you, but I don't have a problem with discussing stuff. Some, however, seem unable to accept with good grace that their 'facts' (read: hopes, assumptions) might not be shared by others. I do have a problem with that.

Some will see various actions as a major coup. They will make bloody sure that their name is associated with that coup. That too is unnecessary: it's the result that's important, not the people who get that result. That's because you can be very sure that if there are negative consequences, they will keep a very low profile.....

 

[T pot 2]

Tim go Tim go ! raising the profile re the sport of caving can only be a good thing. Keep up the good work.

T pot

 

[Ian Adams]

The Gaping Gill trip was nothing short of superb.

It is a huge credit to Tim who has taken his role within the BCA very seriously. This kind of dynamic, pro-active (and voluntary) work is exactly what the BCA central core needs to push forward the mandate it has been given by the members (us).

I agree with other comments made earlier that it is fantastic to see politicians (and a leading QC) actually getting underground to see what it is all about.

Very good work Tim and thank you for organising this and making it happen.



Ian

 

[JasonC]

The two politicians, former Shadow Home Secretary David Davis, MP for Howden and Haltemprice, and David Rutley, who sits for Macclesfield, entered the cave via Bar Pot ...

Leaving the politics aside for a moment, I'm interested that you got two MPs of mature years (certainly Davis is, I don't know Rutley) who apparently have no caving experience down 2 fair-sized ladder pitches and back up.

How did that go ??

Bar Pot would be a fairly intense first trip for a fit twenty-year-old, so I'm really curious as to how they coped.  And was any unparliamentary language used ?

 

[badger]

this I feel is going to be a slightly wandering reply,
firstly well done on a successful caving trip regardless to its reasons, as already highlighted a big first trip for those who have never caved.
I have always been slightly divided on my view,  for or against, but due to difficulties in the past with permits in the dales would have voted for, I am not opposed to a permit system as long as it is easy and fair to all cavers, this did not seem to be the case in the dales, the system in place was out dated and verged on making it as difficult as possible for those who where not buddies, the other issue for us from the south is its a very long way to go with a permit for a said cave only not to be able to do due to wet weather, not that I know what caves you can do wet/dry without making the necessary enquiries.
I also think that the case/opinion made by Dinah rose makes a lot of sense, specially when put with the idea that NE have said you can go caving but only till there is no natural light, to me the answer is either yes or no, natural light seems to be a red herring.
People keep on harping on about the vote ( not sure what percentage voted and how it equated) but the problem with stats is on how there presented, let say only 20% voted, and out of the 20% 80% percent where pro, now does that give a mandate, because the other 80% could not be bothered to vote or is that also taken then they must be pro,
however back to topic, I have read the stuff Tim and his team have produced and would say they have put a lot of work into it, I would also like to believe that the pro team has the same concerns and issues on conservation and liaising with landowners, (me having not seeked landowners views would not know)
I too also have concerns about both, however what I don't think will happen is if crow applies your going to get the whole of the uk caving population descending upon the dales to go caving, I would suspect it will be barely noticeable, the caves that are frequently visited, will still be, those that are less visited will stay the same, I could be wrong.
To the case whether Tim is operating within his BCA remit, I have had 2 personal e-mails to this, one saying he is, one saying he is not, me I don't know as I do not know what remit he was given but by what has been said in this topic it would seem he is within the remit he set out with the BCA.  maybe that an interupatation thing I don't know because I have not seen any document to suggest either way.
But like I started the ramble well done on a successful trip

 

[David Rose]

David Rutley has done a few trips before, including Giants Hole round trip. Both MPs have been active climbers and Alpinists and maintain a good level of fitness. David Davis is a member of the Alpine Club, which requires applicants to have done a minimum of 20 Alpine route routes to be accepted. He also served as a member of the SAS, with all that implies in terms of fitness and endurance. There are MPs who might not fare as well in Bar Pot, but they both managed it comfortably.

 

[Madness]

I'll add my tuppence worth!

Well done to Tim and the BCA for organising this trip. It can only do good in raising the profile of caving and in helping non Cavers understand a bit more of what caving is about.

I know next to nothing about the vote that gave the BCA the 'mandate', but they are acting for the majority who bothered to vote - isn't that what democracy is about?

All those criticising the BCA for campaigning for access should remember that if the Ramblers Association and others had not campaigned so vigorously for the CROW act in the first place, then this possibility of improved access would not exist.

What needs to be remembered is that any law should not be used as a 'big stick to hit landowners over the head with'. The caving community needs to be very careful with regards to keeping landowners happy. Landowners may ultimately have to allow you to walk to a cave on their land, but what's to stop them bulldozing, dynamiting or concreting an entrance.

We need to tread carefully,  but in the right direction. I don't think that any representative body is in a better position to do this than the BCA.

 

[Bob Mehew]

What needs to be remembered is that any law should not be used as a 'big stick to hit landowners over the head with'. The caving community needs to be very careful with regards to keeping landowners happy.

A major benefit for land owners is that if CRoW does apply to caving, then the land owner's liability for harm caused by natural underground features as well as from access features (surface block house, placed anchors, shored up passage, etc) is removed, thus liberating the land owner from an apparent major concern. 

Landowners may ultimately have to allow you to walk to a cave on their land...

I think the 'may' is wrong here.  If the location is on access land, then we already have the right to walk to the entrance and also to go someway down it.  The debate is over whether we have the right to go further down the cave (to the extent of the edge of access land). 

Our campaign is not about extending access land across the surface; it is to obtain recognition that any designated access land already encompasses below as well as above and on the surface of the land - as it does for every other piece of land related legislation (for example see Section 44 of the Infrastructure Act 2015 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/7/section/44/enacted).

... but what's to stop them bulldozing, dynamiting or concreting an entrance.

Nothing but why should they?  (There is a power within CRoW to reopen access but pragmatically it would take a mighty effort to get the relevant authority to use it.)

 

[Alex]

Also as most caves are triple SI, bulldozing or concreting an entrance is illegal.

 

[Madness]

I think the 'may' is wrong here.  If the location is on access land, then we already have the right to walk to the entrance and also to go someway down it.  The debate is over whether we have the right to go further down the cave (to the extent of the edge of access land). 

Sorry, a poor choice of wording on my part.

 

[MJenkinson]

Thanks Tim.

 

[Clive G]

The profile of caving needs raising but also the issue of conservation. Sadly the caves in the Dales have suffered badly from fairly free access. I started caving 50 years ago and in my early days remember wondering why Easter Grotto in Easegill was so badly damaged when there was no reason for the damage to occur. Most recently I visited the areas around GG main chamber and, again, cannot understand why there is so much damage to the formations. This was the case when we also visited more remote locations in the cave, and saw  mud had been hurled at pristine stal.  Caves aren't just playgrounds, they are an unusual part of our environment. In Devon where free access to Pridhamsleigh as been the norm for many years all the formations in the system have been destroyed except those accessible by diving. So whilst free access might seem a great idea we do need to temper that with protection and respect for the caves.

Tim's initiative on behalf of BCA is just what is needed in respect of the CRoW Act and shows caving's national body, the British Caving Association, working on behalf of the interests of its members, unlike the original debate when, for want of a solution to the problem, the previous national negotiating body, the National Caving Association, rather sat on the fence and helped leave the situation ambiguous.

I personally would like to see a return of cave science to a more central stage in order that members of the BCA are better informed of aspects of cave science and helped to take up an interest in following scientific recording and studies of the cave systems in which they are interested. This interest I tried to foster through the 'Discovering . . .' series in Caves & Caving (87-91 inc.).

As Pete rightly points out there are a number of caves where managed access and an intelligent approach to handling the idea of making shortcuts through particularly attractive sections of naturally remote and difficult of access passages can help slow down the rate of attrition by which speleothems and unspoilt sediment floors are otherwise lost forever.

Left alone, cave entrances, in the state in which they are originally found, usually deter the novice or non-caver, but once opened up 'comfortably' to facilitate ease of access and carrying out work inside the cave, tend to invite all comers. Thereby these artificially opened up caves are, from time to time, in need of careful management to ensure that those entering do not harm themselves or the cave. There may also be fixed aids installed inside in some of the longer systems and these aids require regular inspection and replacement when necessary by a responsible body which manages the cave.

Scientific work inside caves also needs managing and coordination since otherwise the work of one scientist or group could interfere with or simply replicate that of another. This is especially the case where hydrological tests are carried out using various dyes and speleothem or sediment samples removed for laboratory analysis.

So, in order for cave access to be fully recognised under the CRoW Act, the question of the right of landowners to designate certain systems on their land as being managed caves, either through open or controlled access, and/or create and cause to be run show caves which are opened to the public under certain terms of entry and safety provisions, needs to be fully addressed and taken into account.

 

[ah147]

Cracking work Tim! You ne any help from a young (or a few) younger cavers I bet I could round some up.


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[Badlad]

FYI - A bit of local interest in the MPs caving trip.  Generally good for caving I think,but please remember the press write the stories their own way.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/14188343.MPs_make_Christmas_visit_to_Gaping_Gill/

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/environment/fighting-for-access-to-yorkshire-s-underground-wonders-1-7660092