VIP caving trip to GG - press release

[royfellows]

Sorry Roy, posts crossed!.

Your OK mate.

Just for the record, I have personal opinions on the CROW debate, good thing or bad thing, which are balanced in that I perceive some advantage, but also some negative.
However, the legal arguments are a different thing, as often stated that things in life are rarely as we would like them to be.

This business will not be settled in a timely manner and its pursuit through the legal system will make the lawyers the only overall winners.

 

[droid]

Defra might change their opinion but it might take a little time. The landowners have become used to people wandering about 'off piste'. The more cavers go caving on access land, the more they will find out that the major landowners are not bothered about it. Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

Go caving on access land.

This is exactly what I mean about 'opinions'.

Contrast with Roy's entirely factual statements.

 

[bograt]

Cheers Roy, must admit, personally, I'm a bit ambivalent about the issue as well, very few popular holes up here in the Peak District will be affected, however, DCA have given themselves a mandate to support the BCA ballot decision so I'm trying my best to keep the debate civilised and on course...
The cave database initiated by Jenny Potts should give us some indication of the more affected regions, this really needs getting on with!

 

[PeteHall]

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs. 

I suspect you might be right.

 

[ah147]

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs. 

I suspect you might be right.

Seconded


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[Simon Wilson]

Eventually permit systems will all disappear as the landowners can't be bothered renewing them because they are simply pointless and redundant. Leave Defra alone, people will move on and eventually Defra's opinion will fit in with the situation. There will be no court case and no egg on any faces.

I believe that there are quite a number of permit systems in place not for the benefit of land owners, but for the empowerment of control bodies, and clubs. 

Can you name one with a major landowner on access land?

 

[ah147]

OFD.


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[Wayland Smith]

Drws Cefn 

 

[badger]

I agree with roy, have mixed feelings some good some bad,
however if it ever came to court I feel that defra have muddied the waters in favour of the cavers already.
yes you can cave to the limit of natural light. No Crow does not apply to caving, even they not sure, the statement to me is a bit perverse, surely its one or the other.
then if action was brought against the caver they would then have to prove you went beyond this point, you could have been having a tea party at this point so be several hours, (unlikely but got to be proved otherwise)
or in the case of alum pot, you went via dolly tubs you could argue you was going into the light, and if you go in via diccan entrance how much of the cave is beyond natural light 30 metres maybe (don't know exactly but know its not that long)?
all a bit grey

 

[Alex]

All I know is I will be brining lots of mirrors on my next trip to reflect the light, so I am in day light. Another question is though, what happens when it goes dark? Its all a bit stupid really.

 

[badger]

All I know is I will be brining lots of mirrors on my next trip to reflect the light, so I am in day light. Another question is though, what happens when it goes dark? Its all a bit stupid really.

my point, the very idea is idiotic, and the fact that defra has made this statement it is 50% of the way there to saying crow applies.
how would that look in a court of law, no crow does not apply, but it does apply to go into an entrance series until no natural light :-\

 

[Simon Wilson]

I don't think they have firmly said that the extent of daylight is the limit. The way I understand it, they are very vague about how far you can go. Let's hold back from saying this is stupid and just accept it as a perfectly reasonable position. What they have said, in effect, is that you can go into caves for an unspecified distance. I'm happy with that.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The words used by NE are ?..my view is that open caves on the side of mountains etc would carry the CROW rights of open-air recreation, because they are in effect in the open air.?.