F
freemason
Guest
Northern chap please go away or we'll unleash the evidence again :evil:
T
taupe
Guest
Rock in a hole
You seem to be be out to try and cause trouble for no apparent reason as surveys of the Merstham Mines and many other quarries in the area are available to anyone in books published by both Croydon Caving Club (Merstham Firestone Quarries) and Chelsea Speleological Society (Secret Tunnel series). By purchasing one of these you will have the surveys you desire and there will not be any copyright issues.
Given this fact you are hardly in a position to accuse anyone of withholding information and would recommend that you contact them direct for details of what is currently available
and......
For those who do not know much about SE Britain Underground, Chelsea Speleo. Soc. have published a series of guides to Caves, tunnels and general underground features in Southern England and most if not all of the local caving groups have contributed.
Taupe
You seem to be be out to try and cause trouble for no apparent reason as surveys of the Merstham Mines and many other quarries in the area are available to anyone in books published by both Croydon Caving Club (Merstham Firestone Quarries) and Chelsea Speleological Society (Secret Tunnel series). By purchasing one of these you will have the surveys you desire and there will not be any copyright issues.
Given this fact you are hardly in a position to accuse anyone of withholding information and would recommend that you contact them direct for details of what is currently available
and......
For those who do not know much about SE Britain Underground, Chelsea Speleo. Soc. have published a series of guides to Caves, tunnels and general underground features in Southern England and most if not all of the local caving groups have contributed.
Taupe
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
Taupe,
Out to cause trouble? No, I was asking for surveys, as until your post nobody had told me they were availabe anywhere, and WCMS would not offer this information either. I thank you for your help.
As for this copyright issue that everyone is so worried about... the image was taken from the WCMS website and sent to me, so if there is a copyright issue they can take it up with themselves in the first place for allowing it to be seen on the WCMS website, to be copied by their members, and then to be issued so that the legal owners of the land they were exploiting could have a copy too.
BTW the anonymous sender is no longer anonymous, but I will respect their wish that their identity is not published on the Internet, but still give a hearty thanks for all the information they have sent.
Out to cause trouble? No, I was asking for surveys, as until your post nobody had told me they were availabe anywhere, and WCMS would not offer this information either. I thank you for your help.
As for this copyright issue that everyone is so worried about... the image was taken from the WCMS website and sent to me, so if there is a copyright issue they can take it up with themselves in the first place for allowing it to be seen on the WCMS website, to be copied by their members, and then to be issued so that the legal owners of the land they were exploiting could have a copy too.
BTW the anonymous sender is no longer anonymous, but I will respect their wish that their identity is not published on the Internet, but still give a hearty thanks for all the information they have sent.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
On 30th September 2005, hole_in_the_rock enlightened us by stating
and now he would try to have us believe that
To those who haven't noticed the inconsistency here.... read on.
If the owners copied the entire WCMS website, then they already had the survey they are so desparate to get! If they didn't realise this (which I VERY much doubt!), then our 'anonymous donor' hasn't given them anything new, has he/she? Or dare I say it, hasn't given them anything at all? Oops, did I suggest someone is not telling us the truth here?
As for copyright, there is no breach if all that anyone does is copy documents or images for their own private use. However, if those images or documents are then further used for personal gain, or republished without permission, either as paper copies or in electronic format, then a breach has most certainly been committed.
Oh, and by the way, remember hole_in_the_rock told us "two of the previous owners were surveyors", and, guess what? I know for a fact that one of them (R.H.) surveyed the mines just after they were discovered! His father showed the results to me! (And I have a copy too!) So, what happened? Did they lose it or something?
There's one helluva lot hole_in_the_rock isn't telling us, but then you've all guessed that, haven't you?
So, Hole_in_the_rock, try answering this question. Who has the most credible story here? Would you like to phone a friend? If you can't think of anyone to phone, perhaps we'd better ask the audience!
and now he would try to have us believe that
To those who haven't noticed the inconsistency here.... read on.
If the owners copied the entire WCMS website, then they already had the survey they are so desparate to get! If they didn't realise this (which I VERY much doubt!), then our 'anonymous donor' hasn't given them anything new, has he/she? Or dare I say it, hasn't given them anything at all? Oops, did I suggest someone is not telling us the truth here?
As for copyright, there is no breach if all that anyone does is copy documents or images for their own private use. However, if those images or documents are then further used for personal gain, or republished without permission, either as paper copies or in electronic format, then a breach has most certainly been committed.
Oh, and by the way, remember hole_in_the_rock told us "two of the previous owners were surveyors", and, guess what? I know for a fact that one of them (R.H.) surveyed the mines just after they were discovered! His father showed the results to me! (And I have a copy too!) So, what happened? Did they lose it or something?
There's one helluva lot hole_in_the_rock isn't telling us, but then you've all guessed that, haven't you?
So, Hole_in_the_rock, try answering this question. Who has the most credible story here? Would you like to phone a friend? If you can't think of anyone to phone, perhaps we'd better ask the audience!
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
What Roger Cook is not saying in his message, is that the Qdfmap.jpg only covers the lower workings, and only parts of it at that. It does not cover the whole area. Perhaps Mr Cook does not know that there are more underground workings in the area, and that this image is only a small part of the surveys I asked for?
I will excuse Mr Cooks ignorance and misunderstandings.
I agree that the info is nothing new, and that the owners had a copy, but it would have been rude to have not acknowledged the help that one of the WCMS members was offering. Not every WCMS member wishes to be tarred with the same brush.
I will excuse Mr Cooks ignorance and misunderstandings.
I agree that the info is nothing new, and that the owners had a copy, but it would have been rude to have not acknowledged the help that one of the WCMS members was offering. Not every WCMS member wishes to be tarred with the same brush.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Mr Cook does not presume to know anything about what might exist at QDF. Mr Cook, however, knows a great deal of facts about the site, and others close by, and not just what he learnt many years ago when talking to the nice people who used to live there, or to the respectful and honest cavers who used to actually explore the old QDF mines until very recently.
Mr Cook knows only what he has been told by reliable sources and by his own proper research. Mr Cook has not thrown his weight around, threatening legal action, and threatening to breach copyright , in order to enhance his understanding of the true history of the mines.
Mr Cook knows the extent of what has been explored at QDF and also knows precisely how deluded hole_in_the_rock is, if he really believes what Mr Cook thinks he thinks.
Mr Cook enhances his understanding by being polite and respectful of other people's hard work and years of careful research.
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
WOW!
This time Mr Cook has no reply to dispute what I have said.
Thank you God.
Roger Cook did spout:
ROTFL
You are so funny Roger Cook! Respect and honesty of what and where? There was no respect for the owners property, and the land was used dishonestly to serve the purpose of lining the WCMS coffers.
This time Mr Cook has no reply to dispute what I have said.
Thank you God.
Roger Cook did spout:
ROTFL
You are so funny Roger Cook! Respect and honesty of what and where? There was no respect for the owners property, and the land was used dishonestly to serve the purpose of lining the WCMS coffers.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Clever Mr Hole squeaked:
Au contraire, I dispute virtually all you have written, Hole. I just choose not to repeat myself ad nauseam (unlike someone else I could mention).
I have taken the trouble to meet the cavers on occasions, to join in their fascinating work, and to understand their honest motives for doing what they do, for no gain to themselves. Have you?
I cry when I see the damage done by ill-equipped idiots who have no respect whatsoever for the historical nature of mines. I am at least encouraged to see cavers doing what they can to put things right. To remove litter, repair damage, remove grafitti, and so on, and all to keep someone else's property in a good condition. These are the people who I call honest and respectful. And furthermore these people made the effort to keep owners informed, despite what you continue to say.
Hole couldn't resist telling us yet again
What on earth are you going on about? You persist in trying to persuade us that these cavers are only interested in making money from your property. Either drop this, or present your evidence. I once visited a mine in the area with a group, although admittedly it was some years ago, and the only money the cavers received was a donation from our society.
We were asked if we had appropriate insurance, and as far as I could see nobody was on the make. If a group wants to give another group some money as a thank you, then that it up to them and is nothing to do with anyone else.
I am getting a little tired of your persistent snide allegations. Either you come up with something new to justify your indignation, or accept that just possibly you might be wrong about all this.
Perhaps we are all just coming to the conclusion that you thrive on pissing people off and have no real interest in accepting reality.
And, finally for now, I wish to remind you that my reason for pursuing this argument, is that I cannot abide seeing dishonest and misleading statements being presented as 'facts', to the detriment of honest people. I have seen too much of this sort of thing in less-enlightened political regimes in the world, and the damage it has done. Zimbabwe is a current extreme example of this. So far, it is only Hole who has done his utmost to mislead, as far as I can determine. And by mislead, I mean take innocent statements and factual accounts, twist their meaning to suit your own purpose, and try to convince everyone that the people who you are accusing are guilty of anything you can think of, short of single-handedly causing Global Warming.
Au contraire, I dispute virtually all you have written, Hole. I just choose not to repeat myself ad nauseam (unlike someone else I could mention).
I have taken the trouble to meet the cavers on occasions, to join in their fascinating work, and to understand their honest motives for doing what they do, for no gain to themselves. Have you?
I cry when I see the damage done by ill-equipped idiots who have no respect whatsoever for the historical nature of mines. I am at least encouraged to see cavers doing what they can to put things right. To remove litter, repair damage, remove grafitti, and so on, and all to keep someone else's property in a good condition. These are the people who I call honest and respectful. And furthermore these people made the effort to keep owners informed, despite what you continue to say.
Hole couldn't resist telling us yet again
What on earth are you going on about? You persist in trying to persuade us that these cavers are only interested in making money from your property. Either drop this, or present your evidence. I once visited a mine in the area with a group, although admittedly it was some years ago, and the only money the cavers received was a donation from our society.
We were asked if we had appropriate insurance, and as far as I could see nobody was on the make. If a group wants to give another group some money as a thank you, then that it up to them and is nothing to do with anyone else.
I am getting a little tired of your persistent snide allegations. Either you come up with something new to justify your indignation, or accept that just possibly you might be wrong about all this.
Perhaps we are all just coming to the conclusion that you thrive on pissing people off and have no real interest in accepting reality.
And, finally for now, I wish to remind you that my reason for pursuing this argument, is that I cannot abide seeing dishonest and misleading statements being presented as 'facts', to the detriment of honest people. I have seen too much of this sort of thing in less-enlightened political regimes in the world, and the damage it has done. Zimbabwe is a current extreme example of this. So far, it is only Hole who has done his utmost to mislead, as far as I can determine. And by mislead, I mean take innocent statements and factual accounts, twist their meaning to suit your own purpose, and try to convince everyone that the people who you are accusing are guilty of anything you can think of, short of single-handedly causing Global Warming.
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
Once again Roger Cook spouted:
Blah, blah, blah.
And showed everyone his total lack of understanding of the situation, by suggesting that I am an owner.
Once again your ignorance and misunderstandings are forgiven.
Cook continues to tell us all how HE is getting tired of this.
Might I suggest that cook contacts the owners and finds out for himself if what I have said is true?
He keeps mentioning how he knows them. Unfortunately he will not contact them becuase He might implicate Himself.
Come on Cook, put your money where your mouth is and make contact with the owners (not me you misguided fool, but the owners!!!), and then publish your findings here.
Before we get Cooks reply, please note how He will not make contact, and will not publish his findings. Roger Cook will prove his own dishonesty by failing this challenge, and will therefore cast doubts on everything he has written so far.
I am sure that the readers would like to see what information you come back with Roger Crook.
Blah, blah, blah.
And showed everyone his total lack of understanding of the situation, by suggesting that I am an owner.
Once again your ignorance and misunderstandings are forgiven.
Cook continues to tell us all how HE is getting tired of this.
Might I suggest that cook contacts the owners and finds out for himself if what I have said is true?
He keeps mentioning how he knows them. Unfortunately he will not contact them becuase He might implicate Himself.
Come on Cook, put your money where your mouth is and make contact with the owners (not me you misguided fool, but the owners!!!), and then publish your findings here.
Before we get Cooks reply, please note how He will not make contact, and will not publish his findings. Roger Cook will prove his own dishonesty by failing this challenge, and will therefore cast doubts on everything he has written so far.
I am sure that the readers would like to see what information you come back with Roger Crook.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
I don't actually. But if that's what Hole wants to think, then so be it. I knew the late Mr Harrison who died in 1972. I am aware of who inherited the land, and I know that one of those people has recently died. We have also all worked out that Hole claims to represent the interests of the person who recently inherited this land.
I do not have contact details for the family - they have never been published here and I have better things to do with my time than write letters to confirm what I already know. I would, of course, need to contact BOTH owners, to get a full picture, wouldn't I? But then, why would I need to do this? Hole has been appointed to represent the interests of one of them. Which begs the question why would the owner say anything different from Hole? And what Hole has told us contradicts much of what I know to be the truth, with or without writing pointless letters to people for whom I have no details.
No, the onus is on Hole to put substance to his allegations against the Wealdon Cave and Mine Society. He is the one with the complaint (oh, sorry, I meant the person Hole represents). No-one else has anything they need to prove to this forum. Nobody here knew anything of this sad business until Hole came here to ask for surveys, explaining how the nasty cavers wouldn't give him one.
If Hole thinks I should contact the owners, he could PM me some contact details.
And has Hole (or the person he represents) bothered to contact the cavers to speak or correspond rationally with them? And will he publish his findings when he has done so? Or perhaps he is worried that he might find out that they are just normal, ordinary, honest people, like 99.9 percent of the population.
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
Well that reply was foretold, and of little surprise.
to quote RC's sig
We dont.
to quote RC's sig
We dont.
D
Darko
Guest
hole_in_the_rock said:
#*@@+% So Sad!!!!!!!
R
Roger Cook
Guest
On 31st October I suggested:
Just to let you know, I'm still waiting.
Just to let you know, I'm still waiting.
T
taupe
Guest
Roger Cook wrote
Have come into this thread rather late but it does seem rather paradoxical that 'Rock in a hole' wants a copy of the survey for the owners but the owners have already done surveys.
Come on 'Rock' be honest for a change and tell us all what you really want. Are you in fact one of the owners, are you acting on their behalf and if so under what authority or just out to cause trouble ?
Have come into this thread rather late but it does seem rather paradoxical that 'Rock in a hole' wants a copy of the survey for the owners but the owners have already done surveys.
Come on 'Rock' be honest for a change and tell us all what you really want. Are you in fact one of the owners, are you acting on their behalf and if so under what authority or just out to cause trouble ?
C
cucc Paul
Guest
Ummmm this is all getting a bit streched isn't it lads... to be honest... this isnt really the way caving works you've all got it all wrong...
As a peacefull mediator ie i have no interest at all in this thread other than me reading it... could i suggest things are done propperly
You all jump in your cars and meet at somewhere neutral.... like a pub... infact a pub is ideal, (im assuming your all cavers) and talk this out propperly...
On another note chances are the gouvernment will have a full survey of the workings from the inital creation of the mine any way and i doubt they'll be to fluffed who reads it... unless theres a secret nuclear bunker down there or sumin
As a peacefull mediator ie i have no interest at all in this thread other than me reading it... could i suggest things are done propperly
You all jump in your cars and meet at somewhere neutral.... like a pub... infact a pub is ideal, (im assuming your all cavers) and talk this out propperly...
On another note chances are the gouvernment will have a full survey of the workings from the inital creation of the mine any way and i doubt they'll be to fluffed who reads it... unless theres a secret nuclear bunker down there or sumin
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Don't assume we are all cavers. We may be historians, archaeologists, or members of the landowners family. Meeting up to discuss things sensibly as a way of sorting things out is not the sole preserve of cavers. Most normal people would do the same thing.
The precedent on how to sort things out was set earlier this year, it seems, with warning notices, officious emails and solicitors letters flying around, all of which came from one direction, as far as we can tell from this thread.
I agree it would be a good idea to do what you say, to meet at a pub and discuss matters. Please tell us, Mr Harrison, honestly, has anyone actually offered to do this? You have listed so many people as being involved, I would be surprised if not a single person has suggested this to you.
The precedent on how to sort things out was set earlier this year, it seems, with warning notices, officious emails and solicitors letters flying around, all of which came from one direction, as far as we can tell from this thread.
I agree it would be a good idea to do what you say, to meet at a pub and discuss matters. Please tell us, Mr Harrison, honestly, has anyone actually offered to do this? You have listed so many people as being involved, I would be surprised if not a single person has suggested this to you.
M
Mine Explorer
Guest
Roger Cook said:
But which Mr Harrison? (or is it Ms.?)
"Hole in the rock" has been quite clear they are not one of the landowners - but are they a member of one of the landowner's family?
T
taupe
Guest
Roger Cook wrote
I also would be quite happy to drive down to a pub and show you what I have if a suitable venue and date can be agreed if it helps defuse the situation.
And in case you are wondering I am not and never have been a member WCMS, CCC, CSS, KURG etc.
So come on then 'Rock'. Whatever it is let's have an answer - if you are quick you will get post number 100 and maybe win a beer as well.
I also would be quite happy to drive down to a pub and show you what I have if a suitable venue and date can be agreed if it helps defuse the situation.
And in case you are wondering I am not and never have been a member WCMS, CCC, CSS, KURG etc.
So come on then 'Rock'. Whatever it is let's have an answer - if you are quick you will get post number 100 and maybe win a beer as well.