D
Darko
Guest
Oh Dear 'Hole in the rock' seems to have dissappeared back down the hole he came from.
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
Dont worry, I am still here, but as there has been nothing constructive to reply to I could see no point in replying.
I suppose I could say that I am not one of the Harrisons, but some half-baked idiot will come along and say that I am, and another will try to convince you that I own the area. So I shall leave it to the know-it-alls to show up their own stupidity.
Roger Cooks posts are amazing. He points out he got a survey before 1972, and the morons backing his replies fail to notice the previous message about surveys being done some 20 years afterwards, which covered the undewater areas (not seen since before 1900) and definately not on Cooks incomplete survey.
I suppose I could say that I am not one of the Harrisons, but some half-baked idiot will come along and say that I am, and another will try to convince you that I own the area. So I shall leave it to the know-it-alls to show up their own stupidity.
Roger Cooks posts are amazing. He points out he got a survey before 1972, and the morons backing his replies fail to notice the previous message about surveys being done some 20 years afterwards, which covered the undewater areas (not seen since before 1900) and definately not on Cooks incomplete survey.
M
Mine Explorer
Guest
hole_in_the_rock said:
Fair enough.
We know "Hole_in_the_rock" isn't one of the landowners because the person has been quick to clarify that they aren't whenever anyone has asked or suggested it.
We don't know whether "Hole_in_the_rock" is related to one of the landowners because they have chosen not to answer the question, because if they answer it and say they're not related, someone else will say they are!...
...looks like we'll never know.
<shrug>
R
Roger Cook
Guest
So a suggestion to meet and chat things over isn't constructive then?
What on earth WOULD be considered a constructive suggestion by Hole, then?
danthecavingman
Member
:roll: Yawn!
S
stuart j goldsmith
Guest
Interesting. :!:
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
Guys, this seems to be getting you all no where
Hole in the Rock wrote in respect to the Owners, who he is obvious close contact with, one solution :-
Quote
Talk to them, explain what happened and why. Ask how to put matter right and work together on a resolution.
Unquote
However, from Hole in the Rock's own words, it seems fair that you assume that anything anyone says has a very high risk that it is going to be held against them by the Owners and result in legal action, if the owners can find a way. Its difficult for any reasonable person to interpret Hole in the Rocks postings otherwise and he does represent the Owners.
Hole in the Rock
I am sure my comment is understandable - people on this thread seem to be very patient, but is it possible you can now give these guys something to work with to keep their attention.
With your so close contact with the Owners can you spell out in clear terms of A) B) C) exactly, with no fudge, 1) what the Owners are seeking AND 2) exactly how parties can meet and work together on a resolution towards this, as you suggest, without any provided information or such discussions being used against them later, either legally or via web forums.
I think now is the time to move on with this, or stop ......
Hole in the Rock wrote in respect to the Owners, who he is obvious close contact with, one solution :-
Quote
Talk to them, explain what happened and why. Ask how to put matter right and work together on a resolution.
Unquote
However, from Hole in the Rock's own words, it seems fair that you assume that anything anyone says has a very high risk that it is going to be held against them by the Owners and result in legal action, if the owners can find a way. Its difficult for any reasonable person to interpret Hole in the Rocks postings otherwise and he does represent the Owners.
Hole in the Rock
I am sure my comment is understandable - people on this thread seem to be very patient, but is it possible you can now give these guys something to work with to keep their attention.
With your so close contact with the Owners can you spell out in clear terms of A) B) C) exactly, with no fudge, 1) what the Owners are seeking AND 2) exactly how parties can meet and work together on a resolution towards this, as you suggest, without any provided information or such discussions being used against them later, either legally or via web forums.
I think now is the time to move on with this, or stop ......
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Thank you. I try my best.
The owners must be very pleased to have such a knowledgable expert representing them. I imagine you have conducted years of historical research on this, and are not just relying on local stories, legends, and supposition.
I also could say that I am not one of the Harrisons- in fact I think we could all say this - but if we don't say it, as indeed Hole has not, then as Mine Explorer suggests, We Will Never Know.
I couldn't resist this quote, taken out of context -
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
Hey guys. why not take a deep breath and see how this can be moved forward by Hole in the Rock
Why not just take a breather and dont judge until there is a reply
Why not just take a breather and dont judge until there is a reply
S
sma
Guest
It seems an appropriate time to remind everyone of the statement made by me early on in this thread. In that post I stated that it was not appropriate to enter into discussion on the matter in this forum with someone who was not prepared to identify themselves. That condition is as valid now as it was when first stated. However, I can guarantee that any approach to us made unconditionally, openly and directly will be considered without prejudice.
Surrey Mines Agent
WCMS
Surrey Mines Agent
WCMS
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
Talk towards resolution would of course need to be fully off-board, in confidence, and discussions must be between identified parties.
Why not wait Hol in the Rocks reply to my posting.
It is essential to first understand from him whether a) the Owners are willing that he provide a detailed and considered list of Owners ideas towards resolution AND b) these are either posted here or provided off board and c) he suggests a means for Parties to feel comfortable to indeed talk together, without threat of legal actions, directly or indirectly as a result of talks or information provided.
Let us be clear, such a freedom to talk condition absolutely does not suggest or deny that any liability exists or is implied by either party; Hole in the Rock no doubt fully realises that talks towards resolution must be under sensible terms and understands that his postings may have not encouraged free talk - Hole in the Rock will be fully aware of this, be assured.
If Hole in the Rock for some reason is unwilling to respond in full OR the Owners conditions are plain unreasonable, OR his own private reply takes the form of repeating statements Ive read above, then you guys know exactly where you stand.
You are then able to decide if you want to continue with this thread.
Why not wait Hol in the Rocks reply to my posting.
It is essential to first understand from him whether a) the Owners are willing that he provide a detailed and considered list of Owners ideas towards resolution AND b) these are either posted here or provided off board and c) he suggests a means for Parties to feel comfortable to indeed talk together, without threat of legal actions, directly or indirectly as a result of talks or information provided.
Let us be clear, such a freedom to talk condition absolutely does not suggest or deny that any liability exists or is implied by either party; Hole in the Rock no doubt fully realises that talks towards resolution must be under sensible terms and understands that his postings may have not encouraged free talk - Hole in the Rock will be fully aware of this, be assured.
If Hole in the Rock for some reason is unwilling to respond in full OR the Owners conditions are plain unreasonable, OR his own private reply takes the form of repeating statements Ive read above, then you guys know exactly where you stand.
You are then able to decide if you want to continue with this thread.
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
What splendid replies.
We are back to people wanting a resolution and not back to surveys as per the original thread.
I have personal veiws about how people involved could go about obtaining a resolution but have to agree that communicaton is possibly the best way. I'm not joking either, WCMS are once again invited to make contact with the owners and explain exactly what they have been doing at Quarry Dean Farm since their formation in 1991, and show the owner proof that they had any legal rights to be using the land, and had legal rights to allow others to use it.
As WCMS has used the Internet to inform the world that they have a good relationship with the owners, they will no doubt have contact addresses for them.
As WCMS used the internet to claim they had the access rights to this private land, let them send it to the owners.
If however they are unable to supply any of these very important things, they should at the very least send their explanations and their apologies.
How is that for some ideas to start the resolution process?
We are back to people wanting a resolution and not back to surveys as per the original thread.
I have personal veiws about how people involved could go about obtaining a resolution but have to agree that communicaton is possibly the best way. I'm not joking either, WCMS are once again invited to make contact with the owners and explain exactly what they have been doing at Quarry Dean Farm since their formation in 1991, and show the owner proof that they had any legal rights to be using the land, and had legal rights to allow others to use it.
As WCMS has used the Internet to inform the world that they have a good relationship with the owners, they will no doubt have contact addresses for them.
As WCMS used the internet to claim they had the access rights to this private land, let them send it to the owners.
If however they are unable to supply any of these very important things, they should at the very least send their explanations and their apologies.
How is that for some ideas to start the resolution process?
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Invited by whom? Has an invitation been posted to them to seek an amicable resolution?
In his last post, SMA made it clear, in very unambiguous terms, what the WCMS position is.
Pathetic and so sad. Hole implies that the allegations of wrong-doing are not being put aside. [The allegation that WCMS have been where they didn't have permission to go, and should therefore apologise]. I don't expect Hole will get any response whatsoever from this pathetic 'invitation'. My opinion is that he doesn't want one. Hole's response is just the same old record again.
Fire Dragon's eminently sensible suggestion was:
Has Hole been given the go ahead to post a detailed list of ideas? Clearly not, unless they have been sent off board. Let's see if sma or WCMS can confirm this.
Likewise, has Hole suggested a means for parties to feel comfortable talking things over? Clearly not.
My opinion?
Talking to Hole in the Rock is a waste of time. You might as well talk to the Man in the Moon. If no-one else is bothered to post here again, then I will join them.
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
Hole in he Rock
You must understand that I am not interested in your personal views when you claim to represent an Owner. I am not involved in this situation but let me tell you that you seem to be missing a serious chance to move foward.
The people following this thread are not fools and should not be treated as such. I check independent sources and I see immediately that what you write about WCMS formation and their day to day work is all plain crap. So please stop this now. I am am not known a Fire Dragon for nothing. Im not against you, not in favour of WCMS or indeed any other party on this thread, but I DO believe in truth.
You have a chance here to move things foward IF you are able to do so, and this would be to your credit. I thought I made it clear to you and to all other parties on this thread that I am not interested in previous postings.
If YOU are indeed representing the Owners then you could have posted a constructive and useful reply along the line that I suggest necessary. You decided not to do so - or were not in a postion to do so......
You remain an unidentified party and you may or may not repreent the owners
Your only hope of seducing me now is to move forward with the truth !
Otherwise we stop this crap right NOW !
I await your proper reply.
You must understand that I am not interested in your personal views when you claim to represent an Owner. I am not involved in this situation but let me tell you that you seem to be missing a serious chance to move foward.
The people following this thread are not fools and should not be treated as such. I check independent sources and I see immediately that what you write about WCMS formation and their day to day work is all plain crap. So please stop this now. I am am not known a Fire Dragon for nothing. Im not against you, not in favour of WCMS or indeed any other party on this thread, but I DO believe in truth.
You have a chance here to move things foward IF you are able to do so, and this would be to your credit. I thought I made it clear to you and to all other parties on this thread that I am not interested in previous postings.
If YOU are indeed representing the Owners then you could have posted a constructive and useful reply along the line that I suggest necessary. You decided not to do so - or were not in a postion to do so......
You remain an unidentified party and you may or may not repreent the owners
Your only hope of seducing me now is to move forward with the truth !
Otherwise we stop this crap right NOW !
I await your proper reply.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Hole_in_the_rock
I have PM'd you.
I have PM'd you.
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
Roger Cook
Sorry I have not received your PM - send again if it is useful to this discussion.
Sorry I have not received your PM - send again if it is useful to this discussion.
R
Roger Cook
Guest
Fire Dragon
What made you think I had PM'd you? Your name isn't Hole_in_the_rock is it? Or perhaps it is? After all, one anonymous poster is much like another. Perhaps I am Hole_in_the_rock. Or perhaps I am Fire Dragon. Perhaps we can all see why this matter MUST be resolved off board and not betwee anonymous entities. Nobody can trust anyone unless they meet face to face.
Roger Cook
What made you think I had PM'd you? Your name isn't Hole_in_the_rock is it? Or perhaps it is? After all, one anonymous poster is much like another. Perhaps I am Hole_in_the_rock. Or perhaps I am Fire Dragon. Perhaps we can all see why this matter MUST be resolved off board and not betwee anonymous entities. Nobody can trust anyone unless they meet face to face.
Roger Cook
F
Fire Dragon
Guest
*
Fire Dragon erred – late night – your point accepted.
Hole in the Rock, I am sometimes harsh in criticism; I apologise.
*
Hole in the Rock, is there a way you are able to demonstrate a constructive way forward along the lines I suggest necessary. If this is not possible please say so. The ball is really in your court – just suggesting letters to owners does not start to give me confidence you are in any position to help
I can only assist you guys if there are indeed two real parties to assist !
Fire Dragon erred – late night – your point accepted.
Hole in the Rock, I am sometimes harsh in criticism; I apologise.
*
Hole in the Rock, is there a way you are able to demonstrate a constructive way forward along the lines I suggest necessary. If this is not possible please say so. The ball is really in your court – just suggesting letters to owners does not start to give me confidence you are in any position to help
I can only assist you guys if there are indeed two real parties to assist !
H
hole_in_the_rock
Guest
Why is it some people want to know who I am and expect me to help sort out the problems at QDF so that they can benefit in it's use?
I am the person who wanted surveys of the area, and asked for such at the very begining of the thread.
I got copies eventually and have now carried out the research that the group I am in wanted to do. My research is complete and the area is of little use to me or my colleagues now.
Anyway casting aside my own feelings about how WCMS... etc etc, I am more than prepared to help try to gain some sort of common ground for the owners and those who need it.
I do however wonder why immunity is being asked for if we are to believe that no wrong has been done?
What is on offer for this immunity?
I can see how, once again the cavers/explorers benefit, but how will the landonwers benefit from allowing people back on their land?
What is in this for them?
Are you suggesting that you know of someone who would like to give the full details of the unlawfull activities at QDF in exchange for immunity from any legal action that might be taken against this individual? or are you suggesting that the owners should not do anything about the use of their land and then allow the same people back on their property as if years of unlawfull use had not taken place?
If you could clarify exactly what you are asking for, I will be more than happy to pass on this information to the owners for you, and come back with a reply for you.
I am the person who wanted surveys of the area, and asked for such at the very begining of the thread.
I got copies eventually and have now carried out the research that the group I am in wanted to do. My research is complete and the area is of little use to me or my colleagues now.
Anyway casting aside my own feelings about how WCMS... etc etc, I am more than prepared to help try to gain some sort of common ground for the owners and those who need it.
I do however wonder why immunity is being asked for if we are to believe that no wrong has been done?
What is on offer for this immunity?
I can see how, once again the cavers/explorers benefit, but how will the landonwers benefit from allowing people back on their land?
What is in this for them?
Are you suggesting that you know of someone who would like to give the full details of the unlawfull activities at QDF in exchange for immunity from any legal action that might be taken against this individual? or are you suggesting that the owners should not do anything about the use of their land and then allow the same people back on their property as if years of unlawfull use had not taken place?
If you could clarify exactly what you are asking for, I will be more than happy to pass on this information to the owners for you, and come back with a reply for you.